Confusing 1010 hand.. thoughts?

[raptor517]

***** Hand History for Game 2357812030 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $200 Buy-in + $15 Entry Fee Trny:13901513 Level:2 Blinds(15/30) - Wednesday, July 13, 16:24:04 EDT 2005
Table Table 12342 (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: Garik4 ( $975 )
Seat 2: gofcukurhat ( $1050 )
Seat 3: Itachi86 ( $1215 )
Seat 4: swisher77 ( $2500 )
Seat 5: pugface ( $415 )
Seat 6: WangoTango11 ( $945 )
Seat 7: CfaJay ( $780 )
Seat 8: bdubs3737 ( $740 )
Seat 10: BOBRON ( $1380 )
Trny:13901513 Level:2
Blinds(15/30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Itachi86 [ Tc Ts ]
swisher77: its been happening to me for 4 days now
Itachi86 calls [30].
swisher77 folds.
pugface folds.
WangoTango11 folds.
CfaJay folds.
>You have options at Table 11673 Table!.
bdubs3737 folds.
BOBRON raises [60].
Garik4 folds.
gofcukurhat calls [30].
Itachi86 calls [30].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5s, 5h, 7s ]
AAirline: i am
gofcukurhat checks.
Itachi86 bets [125].
BOBRON raises [250].
AAirline: still brutal
swisher77: i know
>You have options at Table 12343 Table!.
gofcukurhat folds.
>You have options at Table 12083 Table!.
AAirline: gl guys
Itachi86 calls [125].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2h ]
Itachi86 checks.
BOBRON bets [350].
swisher77: i would apologize but ive been taking it up the poop a long time
Itachi86 is all-In [905]
BOBRON calls [555].

holla

[Bigwig]

Well, I think you're beat on the flop.

I usually check this flop. By limping and calling the mini-raise, you're not in the role of aggressor in this pot. You're essentially playing for set value, not pair value, which is almost certainly the best strategy in a 30% payout STT structure in EP on the 2nd level.

I think you should check the flop, and see what happens. I think I'm dumping this hand on the turn. He's had two chances to slow down his AK/AQ (if that's what he's got) and he's not taking them. Unless you know the player to be a donk who makes those kind of plays with 88 and/or AJ.

[durron597]

Sucks to have TT when opponent has AA and the flop is all unders.

I fold to the flop raise.

Edit: no, you don't have odds to call and see if you hit your set on the turn.

[Unarmed]

The hand plays way easier if you check the flop.
PF raiser has to bet into 2 people on a two flush board. Let him reveal some information on his hand by his actions.

Given the bet and min-raise, I think you're toast a good enough % of the time to just let it go. This is a whole stack decision, not a 125 chip decision, and you're either dead already or a coin flip against Ax /images/graemlins/spade.gif. This is another reason I hate leading out. Aggro opponents (i.e.: most) will put you on a probe bet and raise you with overcards.

You called, so I'd just jam the turn all-in. At least with that line you give him a chance to make a mistake with a FD.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: no, you don't have odds to call and see if you hit your set on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

trust me, i wasnt calling for a 22 to 1 on the turn. im really not that terrible. thanks. holla

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

trust me, i wasnt calling for a 22 to 1 on the turn. im really not that terrible. thanks. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not what I meant, though in retrospect it sounds like it is.

What I meant was that it's usually really tough for me to lay down to these miniraises because the odds are so seemingly good, except you really don't have them here even though they are good.

Though note that you should put a note about this guy down and keep an eye on him for future.

[bigt439]

I guess preflop and the flop are fairly standard, but I just don't understand what you are putting him on by the turn. I like your check there, but that is because I would've decided to stop putting chips in after calling his minraise on the flop. I don't think you can fold to his minraise because this could be a dumb bluff with overcards, but when he bets the turn again I think you have to give him credit for an overpair whether you want to or not. Sure there is a reasonable chance he is bluffing this suspicious board, but I don't see why you'd risk your tournament on it. You've played the flop reasonably strong and indicated you have a hand. I understand that your turn check has somewhat invited a bet, but that is one of the vulnerabilities of this hand. If he has the ability to bluff this turn I think you need to give him the pot. I bet you lose this pot much more often than you win it, and you win less in some of those cases than you lose when he folds with nothing (granted this is somewhat rare).

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
but that is because I would've decided to stop putting chips in after calling his minraise on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you never put in chips after calling minraise on the flop, why did you call the flop?

Just push the flop or fold when he raises you. I prefer fold.

[HonestIago15]

The big trouble with this hand is that only in retrospect, looking at all streets, does it become really apparent that he's representing AA and, I suspect, really has it. The min-raise coupled with very confident betting on all streets really seals it for me - he's completely confident in his hand.

What exactly do you find "confusing" about it? I've hands where 2 people are holding over pocket pairs (assuming that's what he held) go this way on many occasions.

[Unarmed]

F*ck I mis-read the hand earlier, thought there was another to act behind PF raiser on the flop. Anyway, guys Villain really doesn't have to have a monster here. If he reads Raptor's bet as a probe (and C/Ring here with a monster is more typical, right or wrong) then he can min-raise AK here easily. After Raptor just calls, he's indicating that he has a hand he likes, but not so much. After Raptor checks the two flush river its real clear he's not all that happy about his hand, as there's no reason Villain cannot be drawing here. If I am dropped onto this turn in VIllain's shoe's I'm putting raptor all-in with AK.

[bigt439]

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but that is because I would've decided to stop putting chips in after calling his minraise on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you never put in chips after calling minraise on the flop, why did you call the flop?

Just push the flop or fold when he raises you. I prefer fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to be able to see the logic in this. Whether you agree with it or not can be debated. Your bet and call of his raise indicates a decent amount of strength to the average player. He is going to be very hard pressed to bet a worse hand again on the turn (especially with the board paired, and I know raptor would never have a 5 here, but alot of players could), and I think you'll see this go check, check a fair amount of the time when your tt is good (given the turn card). You can then check the river or blocking bet it depending on the card, but I would often check with the intention of calling most rivers assuming the river card wasn't too scary, and the bet didn't reveal something new to me.

[The Don]

Against a random player your are beat 80% of the time here. Barring a read I fold the turn or maybe even the flop minraise.

[durron597]

I'm factoring the preflop action into this opinion, too.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
F*ck I mis-read the hand earlier, thought there was another to act behind PF raiser on the flop. Anyway, guys Villain really doesn't have to have a monster here. If he reads Raptor's bet as a probe (and C/Ring here with a monster is more typical, right or wrong) then he can min-raise AK here easily. After Raptor just calls, he's indicating that he has a hand he likes, but not so much. After Raptor checks the two flush river its real clear he's not all that happy about his hand, as there's no reason Villain cannot be drawing here. If I am dropped onto this turn in VIllain's shoe's I'm putting raptor all-in with AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are most definitely not the average player that would be dropped into this situation, and they would almost definitely not be thinking this deeply. You're writing supports how the hand could play out the way it did with you still being ahead. This is very true, this could happen this way. But this betting pattern could also indicate that you are beat, and I feel that you are beat way more than your line of thinking is true.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Just push the flop or fold when he raises you. I prefer fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

this isnt a 10 dollar sng, actual poker is being played. the thing i dont understand is why 2+2 people HATE to see a turn. its either push preflop, or push on the flop. god forbid we take a card off and see what happens on the turn.. holla

[HonestIago15]

[ QUOTE ]
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F*ck I mis-read the hand earlier, thought there was another to act behind PF raiser on the flop. Anyway, guys Villain really doesn't have to have a monster here. If he reads Raptor's bet as a probe (and C/Ring here with a monster is more typical, right or wrong) then he can min-raise AK here easily. After Raptor just calls, he's indicating that he has a hand he likes, but not so much. After Raptor checks the two flush river its real clear he's not all that happy about his hand, as there's no reason Villain cannot be drawing here. If I am dropped onto this turn in VIllain's shoe's I'm putting raptor all-in with AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are most definitely not the average player that would be dropped into this situation, and they would almost definitely not be thinking this deeply. You're writing supports how the hand could play out the way it did with you still being ahead. This is very true, this could happen this way. But this betting pattern could also indicate that you are beat, and I feel that you are beat way more than your line of thinking is true.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. It's entirely possible for the villain to be holding AK, but I don't think it's likely by a long shot.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just push the flop or fold when he raises you. I prefer fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

this isnt a 10 dollar sng, actual poker is being played. the thing i dont understand is why 2+2 people HATE to see a turn. its either push preflop, or push on the flop. god forbid we take a card off and see what happens on the turn.. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I don't mind you seeing the turn. It's here that I think I give the hand up.

But I like check/calling the flop. It's cheaper.

[lastchance]

Because half the deck sucks for you. You're letting AK and 2 overs draw to 6 outs, a flush draw draw to nine, and letting AK represent flush, or flush draw represent AK.

There's no card in the deck that can really help you, and half the deck sucks.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

this isnt a 10 dollar sng, actual poker is being played. the thing i dont understand is why 2+2 people HATE to see a turn. its either push preflop, or push on the flop. god forbid we take a card off and see what happens on the turn.. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

What turn card do you want to see? There are so many turn cards that make you hate your hand here.

Trust me, there are plenty of times I'm willing to take a card off. This isn't one of them.

[johnnybeef]

i check/call all the way down and prolly fold to a push.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Against a random player your are beat 80% of the time here. Barring a read I fold the turn or maybe even the flop minraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

im sorry but i feel obliged to ask, where do you come up with yer 80% number? holla

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm factoring the preflop action into this opinion, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you mean? Into the fact that raptor could be weak? I completely understand that and have acknowledged that the way this hand played out you are vulnerable to being bluffed off the best hand. I just don't think this happens enough to justify check raising the turn. I guess this comes down to a matter of opinion. I feel most of these players are not incredibly deep thinking players and that the strength he's indicated is usually because of the strength of his hand as opposed to the strength of his hand reading ability.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Against a random player your are beat 80% of the time here. Barring a read I fold the turn or maybe even the flop minraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

im sorry but i feel obliged to ask, where do you come up with yer 80% number? holla

[/ QUOTE ]

If there is one play that screams out "you are beaten" at the lower levels, this is it. Do people use it differently at the higher limits?

[HonestIago15]

I have to ask raptor, what did you put him on that you would stick with the hand for this long after he showed so much strenght?

[Apathy]

Theres a chance BOBron has a poorly played flush draw with two overs but I think I would bet/fold the flop against him and his min raise here. It just seems too likely he is either full or has AA's.

Usher would know better then me about player specific stuff as I havent played Bobron in a while but I seem to remember seeing him play big pairs like this before.

If you don't buy it that he has you beat you should obviously go for the checkraise turn as you did (unless an Ace comes off).

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you mean?

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that a preflop miniraise a very large portion of the time means a big pocket pair? Sometimes it means a hand like small suited connectors, but even there you are up at least at best a flush draw or but often enough trip 5s on this flop.

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
i check/call all the way down and prolly fold to a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really really hate this line here. It's so expensive, you never find out where your at, you don't define your hand and give the villian tons of incentive to try to bluff you off with overs. AND your giving two basically free cards at what could easily be 6 outs or more and you don't know which cards hurt you by not betting.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]

If you don't buy it that he has you beat you should obviously go for the checkraise turn as you did (unless an Ace comes off).

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Apathy,

Why C/R the turn over just pushing? Seems to me that checking lets Villain either check (not good) or push. (not good) He happened to make a dumb move here (if on the draw) but aren't most players likely to either take a free card or really put Raptor to the test by shoving?

Also, I really don't agree with leading this flop as it will result in Hero laying down the best hand a decent % of the time. If its dry I'm more apt to lead.

[microbet]

The first and sickest thing I realized when I looked at this HH was that you put 86 in various usernames because you were BORN IN 1986!!!!!

That is sick.

As far as the hand goes. He sure didn't play the flop like he had a draw. He either has a monster or is representing one. If you don't know him to be tricky, I think fold on the flop. If you think you are ahead on the flop I think you should push after his reraise. Even on the flop, it is looking like 77 or quads.

holla,

microbet67

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just push the flop or fold when he raises you. I prefer fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

this isnt a 10 dollar sng, actual poker is being played. the thing i dont understand is why 2+2 people HATE to see a turn. its either push preflop, or push on the flop. god forbid we take a card off and see what happens on the turn.. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

As I've already said, I don't think you can fold to the min-raise, but you say you wanted to see what happened on the turn. You checked, he bet strongly. This is not what I would want to happen. If it went check, check, (or even check, small bet) I'm fairly certain I have the best hand on the turn, but check, strong bet doesn't look good. Is there anything else he could do on the turn that would look stronger?

[The Don]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Against a random player your are beat 80% of the time here. Barring a read I fold the turn or maybe even the flop minraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

im sorry but i feel obliged to ask, where do you come up with yer 80% number? holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Well obviously it is an estimate based on a possible range (70% is probably more accurate... still a fold though). I know from NL200 that a minraise on the flop and a half pot bet bet on the turn is normally a big hand.

Hear is my range based on his play:
5%AK
10% 88
15% 99
1% 1010
40% JJ
15% QQ-AA
14% A7

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
microbet67

[/ QUOTE ]

how would skipperbob do his????? skipperbob89? or would it be skipperbob1789?

I digress

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i check/call all the way down and prolly fold to a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really really hate this line here. It's so expensive, you never find out where your at, you don't define your hand and give the villian tons of incentive to try to bluff you off with overs. AND your giving two basically free cards at what could easily be 6 outs or more and you don't know which cards hurt you by not betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree check calling the whole way is atrocious. holla

[Apathy]

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[ QUOTE ]

If you don't buy it that he has you beat you should obviously go for the checkraise turn as you did (unless an Ace comes off).

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Apathy,

Why C/R the turn over just pushing? Seems to me that checking lets Villain either check (not good) or push. (not good) He happened to make a dumb move here (if on the draw) but aren't most players likely to either take a free card or really put Raptor to the test by shoving?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well checking behind isnt so bad actually since it really tells you where the villians at, then you can check and call on most rivers, confident you have the best hand, while folding on some scary ones.

The reason you want to check in this spot is because after the villian min raises you they are quite likely to bet again unimproved anyways, but if you push they will likley only call you with hands that beat you in this spot. Don't be so concerned about having to call for all your chips if they push because they can have a wider range of hands by pushing first after you check, making you more likely to be well ahead and double up, rather then just take the smaller pot.

If that doesn't make sense let me know on msn or something.

[microbet]

Makes sense and I'm sure it goes that way a fair amount of the time. But, from Boreon point of view, when you call the reraise he's gonna have to wonder what the heck you have. He could put you on a monster and then be unwilling to make that bluff. If the next card is a spade, you will be scared of him and he will be scared of you and if it is an A, K or Q you will be scared of him.

So, in many cases it will be hard to get paid when you are ahead. That's in addition to giving another card to someone who most likely has more outs than you.

I favor folding the flop - then pushing the flop after that. I don't think the correct answer can be reasoned out though. It would take a ton of data to figure out what is best. Lacking that, I will certainly listen to the collective wisdom of a bunch of kids who have played 4378929743897312974 hands of poker.

[raptor517]

ok, results time.. he pushed, he called with J7 of clubs and my TT held up. im not saying i played the hand correctly, this guy is awful though.. and i really wasnt sure what to do the whole hand. i really didnt think he was strong at all, so thats why i made the play. and yes, i would have posted this hand if he had AA and i lost, to get some thoughts. holla

[KingDan]

[ QUOTE ]
ok, results time.. he pushed, he called with J7 of clubs and my TT held up. im not saying i played the hand correctly, this guy is awful though.. and i really wasnt sure what to do the whole hand. i really didnt think he was strong at all, so thats why i made the play. and yes, i would have posted this hand if he had AA and i lost, to get some thoughts. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is an example of
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2854871&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i check/call all the way down and prolly fold to a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really really hate this line here. It's so expensive, you never find out where your at, you don't define your hand and give the villian tons of incentive to try to bluff you off with overs. AND your giving two basically free cards at what could easily be 6 outs or more and you don't know which cards hurt you by not betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

its not expensive at all. by calling you are announcing to the pf raiser that you have a significant hand. as a result, he will usually check the turn behind you. your hand has a value, let him negotiate the price that it is worth.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i check/call all the way down and prolly fold to a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really really hate this line here. It's so expensive, you never find out where your at, you don't define your hand and give the villian tons of incentive to try to bluff you off with overs. AND your giving two basically free cards at what could easily be 6 outs or more and you don't know which cards hurt you by not betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree check calling the whole way is atrocious. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, so take your line and go bust which you obviously did. take my line and control the size of the pot. if he makes a huge bet, let the hand go. its so simple. holla

[lastchance]

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
i check/call all the way down and prolly fold to a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really really hate this line here. It's so expensive, you never find out where your at, you don't define your hand and give the villian tons of incentive to try to bluff you off with overs. AND your giving two basically free cards at what could easily be 6 outs or more and you don't know which cards hurt you by not betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

its not expensive at all. by calling you are announcing to the pf raiser that you have a significant hand. as a result, he will usually check the turn behind you. your hand has a value, let him negotiate the price that it is worth.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, check-calling this is really, really awful. You want money in on the flop instead of the turn or the river. Check-calling lets hands you beat on the flop catch up to you, and value bet the turn or the river for money, and may let 99 check the turn or river when they're going to call your bets.

Absolutely awful line, especially with 2 opponents in, both of whom are likely to have overs at least.

Check-raise here works, or bet-fold/3-bet.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
i check/call all the way down and prolly fold to a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really really hate this line here. It's so expensive, you never find out where your at, you don't define your hand and give the villian tons of incentive to try to bluff you off with overs. AND your giving two basically free cards at what could easily be 6 outs or more and you don't know which cards hurt you by not betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree check calling the whole way is atrocious. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, so take your line and go bust which you obviously did. take my line and control the size of the pot. if he makes a huge bet, let the hand go. its so simple. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

read 2 posts up. didnt go bust /images/graemlins/wink.gif holla

[The Don]

Ha well after poker prophecying the guy I would say that this play definitely +EV. I wouldn't try it against a good (or even solid) player though (not that they would minraise to begin with).

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
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i check/call all the way down and prolly fold to a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really really hate this line here. It's so expensive, you never find out where your at, you don't define your hand and give the villian tons of incentive to try to bluff you off with overs. AND your giving two basically free cards at what could easily be 6 outs or more and you don't know which cards hurt you by not betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree check calling the whole way is atrocious. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, so take your line and go bust which you obviously did. take my line and control the size of the pot. if he makes a huge bet, let the hand go. its so simple. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

read 2 posts up. didnt go bust /images/graemlins/wink.gif holla

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah yeah, not to be results oriented or anything, but the way you posted this hand, tells me that your instincts were telling you that you were possibly behind. instinct is a very strong thing in this game and as such, i take the line of checking and calling in an effort to keep the pot small until you have more information. however, the standard play is to be the aggressor with an overpair when headsup in a relatively shallow stack situation such as a party sng.

[Apathy]

I think that it is very important to learn that in no limit, checking and calling is often not the best way to keep a pot small.

Especially out of position.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that it is very important to learn that in no limit, checking and calling is often not the best way to keep a pot small.

Especially out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

sure it is, if he fires a huge bet, let go of the hand. by calling you are announcing that you have a hand.

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think that it is very important to learn that in no limit, checking and calling is often not the best way to keep a pot small.

Especially out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

sure it is, if he fires a huge bet, let go of the hand. by calling you are announcing that you have a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

sigh, nm... I'm going to bed.

[johnnybeef]

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I think that it is very important to learn that in no limit, checking and calling is often not the best way to keep a pot small.

Especially out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

sure it is, if he fires a huge bet, let go of the hand. by calling you are announcing that you have a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

sigh, nm... I'm going to bed.

[/ QUOTE ]

fair enough, i will yield, considering that he is out of position.

[SammyKid11]

This might have already been said (I've been told to post responses on here before looking at others' responses so I'd learn more)...but here's what I think -- you're either way ahead or way behind. If you're going to put him all-in after he invests another 300 on the turn, why not just push on the flop and make it a harder call on villain? Certainly it's not because you're so sure you're ahead that you just want more $ in the pot. Take the fight to villain and make him make a really tough call, IMHO.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
This might have already been said (I've been told to post responses on here before looking at others' responses so I'd learn more)...but here's what I think -- you're either way ahead or way behind. If you're going to put him all-in after he invests another 300 on the turn, why not just push on the flop and make it a harder call on villain? Certainly it's not because you're so sure you're ahead that you just want more $ in the pot. Take the fight to villain and make him make a really tough call, IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]

if im either way ahead or way behind, a free card wont hurt me, and ill take that extra 300 chips on the turn if im way ahead. holla

[curtains]

Are you insane of course a free card can hurt you if he has overcards! It's not like you have KK and are scared he has AA.

[Newt_Buggs]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been told to post responses on here before looking at others' responses so I'd learn more

[/ QUOTE ]
going off topic, is it just me or is this a really stupid idea? You should definitly try to figure out a hand before reading the responses, but posting your ideas before reading the responses just causes the same thing to get posted 5 times and clutter the new, important information.

[curtains]

I respond immediately before reading the responses almost always /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[durron597]

Any spade, ace, king, queen, jack, or six makes you hate your hand even more than you already do. So thats 24 cards. (21 if you disagree with me about the 6). You only really want to see 2 cards, any T - 5s don't help you because if you were already losing you're still losing.

I don't see why you want to give a cheap card when so much of the deck sucks for you. Decide whether you have the best hand and get the chips in or fold.

[kiddj]

In the other strategy forums here, I was under the impression that posting everyone's screen names in a hand post was frowned on.

Is this not an issue with the tourny hand posts? Just curious.

[lacky]

I think I'd push or fold when he raised the flop. And I suck at folding, so I'd push.

Steve

[WMetcalf]

First post, please be kind. Anyway, as I read the responses and thought about the problem, it reminded me of this:
web page (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=221 4026&Forum=f22&Words="lead%20out"&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=2191249&Search=true&wh ere=bodysub&Name=18623&daterange=1&newerval=1&newe rtype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post2214026 )

Keep in mind that Gigabet was really discussing a hand that Swiftsteal was involved in NOT the OP of that thread. In short, what about a check, call, lead out play that allows you to either dump if he's aggressive with the flop bet (or if the player in between you slowplayed the set from his big blind) or give him a chance to fold his (crap) hand on the turn? With the player in between you and the raiser, you can get more information on where you stand by checking the flop with the plan to lead out on the turn, it seems to me. Anybody think this is terrible?