My first hand. KK in a super pot

[silencio]

If this is too much beginner's stuff, please tell me and I'll move it to the beginners forum.
I really don't have any reads. I guess you can imagine a regular Stars .5/.10 table.

It's clear that no one would have folded with this pot but I am not so sure about check/betting the turn and don't know if I should have folded the river when it was pretty clear that I don't have the best hand.


PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (24 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, SB folds, BB calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls, CO calls.

Turn: (19.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Button calls, BB calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

River: (24.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB folds, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, Button calls, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 27.50 BB

[KeysrSoze]

I'm not folding the river (well for anything less than a 3 bet)

[@bsolute_luck]

wow, that is one of the most bizarre sequences of betting i've seen /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

w/o reads..wow i don't know. the first question is how aggressive button is with a flush draw? or what does MP1 bet into 2 preflop raisers/cappers on this board and then just call down?

and then CO bets ahead of Button on a nearly blank turn (does complete an ugly 75 straight) after cold calling the flop?

and then why did you lead out on the river?

i think have more questions than answers, so maybe if you try and answer some, i can be of more help /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Fantam]

Button's 3-bet on the flop seems to suggest that he either had an 8 or a pocket pair higher than 8's. And CO's turn bet may also have been a high pocket pair after you checked.

Nonetheless, I would have felt inclined to check/call both the turn and river, so that I lost the least in case someone had the 8.

I would not have folded on the river in such a big pot though, when there was a reasonable chance that I had the best hand.

[silencio]

[ QUOTE ]
wow, that is one of the most bizarre sequences of betting i've seen /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

w/o reads..wow i don't know. the first question is how aggressive button is with a flush draw? or what does MP1 bet into 2 preflop raisers/cappers on this board and then just call down?


[/ QUOTE ]

I am sorry but I haven't yet developed my reading skills. Especially when I had only played a couple of hands with the table. I think one of the problems in this level (.05/.10) is that it is very difficult to trust your villain's actions as insights to what he actually has.

[ QUOTE ]

and then CO bets ahead of Button on a nearly blank turn (does complete an ugly 75 straight) after cold calling the flop?


[/ QUOTE ]

I thought it just showed that he was pretty strong and the flop didn't ruin it for him. a top pair or 88.

[ QUOTE ]

and then why did you lead out on the river?


[/ QUOTE ]

Now I see that is was a mistake. I couldn't fold no one that beat me and I also risked getting raised.

[@bsolute_luck]

yeah i know about the problem with reads, those were just questions that popped in my head that would have helped with decisions in this hand.

my default kinda play would be: seeing as MP1 just called the Button 3-bet and checks the turn, i'd bet into the Button again since IMO, the turn could be a blank, not give him a free card, and probably fold to a c/r from someone other than the preflop raiser and Button.

seeing as the hand was played, i'd check/call the river probably. [ QUOTE ]
I thought it just showed that he was pretty strong and the flop didn't ruin it for him. a top pair or 88

[/ QUOTE ] i hope he doesn't have 88 /images/graemlins/shocked.gif, if that's what you think, then leading the river is REALLY bad /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
It's clear that no one would have folded ...

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with that.

[ QUOTE ]
...it was pretty clear that I don't have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with this. With the wacky betting pattern here (do most .05/.1 players smoke dope a lot?), I can't tell who has the best hand. I'm certainly not about to fold this river for one bet, but betting into the turn raiser is a tad over the top.

[sirana]

Hmph. this one is really strange.

i believe the action till the turn is pretty standard.
the check on the turn should be standard, too. after that things are getting real tricky.

I think we can relatively safely rule out the possibility of the button having an eight or pocket sixes, since he doesn't raise COs turn bet. so we should be up against an overpair (probably excluding AA)or an aggressively played flush draw. (I think an overpair with a heart could be the most probable hand, the ruined backdoor flush being the reason he falls silent on the turn)
COs action is even stranger.
While a 44 is possible, there aren't that many players that would 3bet this preflop ;-)
it might have been a strangely slowplayed 8 or overpair, or something like A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

The river leaves Button probably with a busted flush draw or an overpair.
CO might have any two cards you can imagine and some you can't ;-)

MP1 could have really anything, too, from two overcards, an 6 a frightened 8 or some pocket pair.

BB is my favorite though. calling the flop 3bet and openfolding the river, yeah.. I like that. probably on a flush draw that got busted.


Most probably, we have two complete donks who thought "Hey, this is fun. I can do that, too" when they saw WSOP on TV (hey, that's how I got started ;-)) and two little kiddies that found daddies poker account password. You decide who is who ;-)

Taking the fact that this is 0.05/0.10 where there are enough donks and the really strange play of both players (which strongly suggests they are donks) I'd probably raise the turn and call down till the end when raised.
If not raised I'd bet out the river.

[dbj007]

This pot has become massive on the flop, and with a bet from the player in front of you, it generally becomes correct to raise with marginal hands or fold. However, this pot has become so large that even with your raise the first caller behind you has to only call 2 small bets in a 27sb pot. Leaving future callers with 13.5-1 pot odds makes it correct to call with all kinds of crap. In these types of situations up to the flop, it might be better to wait for the turn to raise. Perhaps MP 1 would not have slowed down on the turn facing only a call from you, and a raise from the CO. Now, MP1 may bet the turn and you can raise, or MP1 checks and you bet while CO raises. Facing the field with two big bets on the turn might be able to shutout hands that can make profitable calls (small flush draws and OESDs) and gives worse odds to a-x and gutshots which can beat you on the river. Protecting big hands in multiway pot is the key to profit, espcially in low limit games!

[GTSamIAm]

Looks fine. Why'd you check/call the turn and then bet the river? Just check/call the river again.

[sirana]

I don't think waiting for the turn to raise is good in this particular case for several reasons:

1. The chances of keeping the pot small till the turn are rather slim. If you just call the flop bet it is very probable that CO (having 3-bet preflop) raises, leaving us in the exact same siuation as we were if we raised ourselves. If we raise, however he might be even 3-betting our raise, thus protecting for us even more and giving us additional information that he is probably holding a supreme hand.

2. I think it is crucial in this situation to get single hearts, backdoor straights and Ax (which are not getting the right odds to call our raise) out of the hand on the flop. So the flop raise helps to protect us significantly.

3. You are virtually never getting flush draws (low or high) or OESDs out of the hand with a raise on the turn, even moreso since this is micro-micro. Even if the best happened and the they had to face only 15-2 bets they would be correct to call with 8 respective 9 outs. You probably wouldn't even be able to get the gutshots out (which haven't correct odds to call, but probably will anyway since this is 0.5/0.10)

So all in all I think it would be a mistake to forgo a flop raise to wait for the turn.