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View Full Version : $20+2 Getting frisky with 99 in level 2


Freudian
07-13-2005, 01:19 PM
Villain is very loose and raises a lot preflop. Poor postflop. That is the main reason I called his raise preflop. I am still not sure I think it is a good idea. So the main question is if I should let this one go preflop.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t765)
SB (t765)
BB (t1035)
UTG (t3130)
MP (t1315)
CO (t990)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t30, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t125</font>, MP folds, Hero calls t95, SB folds.

Flop: (t310) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets t150</font>, Hero pushes all-in

Phill S
07-13-2005, 01:34 PM
You say he play poorly post flop, but in what way? Does he call all in with overcards?

You know little or nothing about his hand, and your pushing into a relatively small pot to find out (if he calls, he has you beat, probably.)

I like the theory about calling, but 99 is too off/on for it too be right with these stack sizes. Basicly, if you hit your ahead, if you dont, who knows?

Misapplied theory imo.

Phill

Registrationtoo
07-13-2005, 01:41 PM
i call, and see what he does on the turn.

Freudian
07-13-2005, 01:43 PM
He might call all-ins with overcards or underpair (he is the kind to call an all-in on this flop with 22 and say "I thought you had AK"). He does take stabs at the pot no matter if he hits or not.

Apart from that, a big reason for calling preflop is that he raises preflop so often that my 99 is ahead of his range (25-30% PFR) and I have position.

He did fold to my push so it is anybodys guess as to what he had here. K4s is as likely as AQ.

11t
07-13-2005, 01:44 PM
Only scared players aren't willing to trust their reads. If you think he is raising with air then by all means, call with your 99.

However, him raising from the BB would be indicative of a big hand, and when you see players being very loose preflop they typically have some inclination of position.

Anyways, if I am willing to call his raise and see a flop I'd simply forgo the flop and I'd push preflop to his raise but I am a crazy mofo.

Dan Rutter
07-13-2005, 02:07 PM
When you say someone plays poor post flop, shouldn't the chips stacks be large enough in relation to blinds, that you can bet him in manners he makes mistakes. If you called because he plays poor postflop, the way you bet the hand is not really going to induce mistakes from him postflop. He will call you with a higher pair, and likely fold high cards. If he calls you with higher cards good, but I really do not think that your strategy is outplaying him postflop.

Freudian
07-13-2005, 02:10 PM
Pot is already big enough on the flop that I don't mind taking it down right there. Also, there is a good chance he is calling my all-in with hands I am ahead of.

Besides what if a J falls on the turn and he pushes? Should I call just because I think he is poor postflop?

wiggs73
07-13-2005, 02:15 PM
I don't like a call here because if he's making a continuation bet with AK, AQ or whatever other 2 overcards, it's only giving him another chance to hit. This comes down to push or fold for me. I do the latter if I think I'm beat and the former if I think I'm ahead.

Jay36489
07-13-2005, 02:17 PM
With your read I'm playing it the same way.

Dan Rutter
07-13-2005, 04:27 PM
Your argument for getting involved in this hand was that your opponent plays poor post-flop. Your real reasoning though based on how you played the hand was If I have an overpair or set after the flop I am moving all-in. Your read on his post-flop play should have no influence on why you play this hand then. You are not using any post-flop skills of your own in this situation. You are saying I beat overcards, and underpairs, I will go all-in and hope I win. You are not taking advantage of his supposedly weaker post-flop skill. You are hoping you have the best hand, and if you do he will call. You said oh he may call me with 22 here thinking I have AK and he will hope he wins. You are doing the same exact thing, you are hoping he has an underpair, or overcards, and you will win. You are hoping, not beating him with a higher level of post-flop skill. I am not saying moving all-in there is a bad play, but it does not validate your arugment for becoming involved in the hand in the first place.

Freudian
07-13-2005, 04:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Your argument for getting involved in this hand was that your opponent plays poor post-flop. Your real reasoning though based on how you played the hand was If I have an overpair or set after the flop I am moving all-in. Your read on his post-flop play should have no influence on why you play this hand then. You are not using any post-flop skills of your own in this situation. You are saying I beat overcards, and underpairs, I will go all-in and hope I win. You are not taking advantage of his supposedly weaker post-flop skill. You are hoping you have the best hand, and if you do he will call. You said oh he may call me with 22 here thinking I have AK and he will hope he wins. You are doing the same exact thing, you are hoping he has an underpair, or overcards, and you will win. You are hoping, not beating him with a higher level of post-flop skill. I am not saying moving all-in there is a bad play, but it does not validate your arugment for becoming involved in the hand in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your argument makes zero sense. And I hope you realize that one of the main reasons for getting involved in the hand is because I believe 99 is better than the hand he has. You keep harping on about postflop skill as if that was the only thing in my mind here.

You think calling this flop (because that was how you would have played it) would show postflop skill? In what way?

I am pushing because there is every reason to believe I have the best hand but there are many cards on the turn that may hurt me. How on earth you can interpret "postflop skill" to not include pushing on a flop like this is beyond me.

Dan Rutter
07-13-2005, 04:59 PM
I did not say I would have called that flop, in fact I would have likely pushed. When all you can really do is get all-in on the flop after a small bet there really is not a lot of post-flop skill. You have a hand, and you make a judgement if it is likely good in relation to the pot odds. You are giving overcards, and underpairs incorrect odds to draw out on you when you move in. But in reality you know nothing about his hand for sure. You are assuming what his hand is. If you are going to outplay someone postflop, it generally means you have an idea of what his hand is PF, and you will further define it by the actions the both of you take on the flop, and turn, and river. Each of these actions will allow you to outplay your opponent. Being poor, or great post-flop is not a skill that just assumes. Yes he more likely has overcards, so a push is probably correct now that you have an overpair.

So if a J came on the flop your not pushing? How can you say that J hit him, if it came on the flop? If you had chips large enough in relation to the blinds, that would be a piece of information a player with superior post-flop skill would be able to figure out. When all you can do is go all-in, you will not be able to outplay him. You are guessing. If he does not have a J you likely have the best hand, if you guess wrong he calls and flips over AJ, instead of AK you likely lose.

Freudian
07-13-2005, 05:04 PM
Pushing on this flop gives him the opportunity to make a mistake by calling with a worse hand. So exactly how does it not take advantage of his poor post-flop skill when I have observed him to make poor calls like that in the past?

I still don't see how me turning into a calling station (or whatever you want to do to take this hand to the turn and river to define the hands here) shows postflop skill and takes advantage of his poor postflop skills.