AK, worth getting stacked?

[jkkkk]

villain is classic TAG, not too agressive though 2.5 pfr, 3avg ag

Party Poker (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">8 folds</font>.

3 or so limps to Hero who raises to $2, one caller who is UTG+1.

Flop: 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
.
UTG+1 bets $5, I call.

Turn: 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

UTG+1 bets $15, I fold.



I know this line is weak, I think I should of raised the flop to see where I was. Raise to $15?

[Laomedon]

Stack sizes? I just don't see how you have any information to let you make this fold here... I think this flop needs a raise and, given your read, if you meet substantial resistance by all means fold, I just don't see how you KNOW you're behind in this spot.

[soah]

You don't have to KNOW you're behind in order for folding to be correct.

[wslee00]

[ QUOTE ]
You don't have to KNOW you're behind in order for folding to be correct.

[/ QUOTE ]
i don't think what you're saying applies here - hero has AK on an uncoordinated flop (well, unless you hold QT). You better know you're behind, or at least be very certain, if you fold this.

I raise on the flop to $15.

[Go_Blue88]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You don't have to KNOW you're behind in order for folding to be correct.

[/ QUOTE ]
i don't think what you're saying applies here - hero has AK on an uncoordinated flop (well, unless you hold QT). You better know you're behind, or at least be very certain, if you fold this.

I raise on the flop to $15.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that you should raise the flop here. Villian could be betting a King with a weak kicker to see where he's at, and when you just called, he decided he was ahead.

[jkkkk]

Yep, I knew I should of, was just making sure that was the general consensus.

[NickPoker]

I agree with everyone else. Re-raise flop, assuming you are not committed probably fold to a re-raise or a turn lead.

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that you should raise the flop here. Villian could be betting a King with a weak kicker to see where he's at, and when you just called, he decided he was ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

[swolfe]

if you're going to fold the turn when nothing has changed, then you should fold the flop. that's not a bad play against a typically passive TAG...you're generally only going to play a big pot with them when you're behind.

[jkkkk]

[ QUOTE ]
if you're going to fold the turn when nothing has changed, then you should fold the flop. that's not a bad play against a typically passive TAG...you're generally only going to play a big pot with them when you're behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, calling the flop was just plain horrible. I imagine more than half the time he bets into me like this he has AK or better, though i don't think I can justify a fold on the flop, he might call down with a weaker K.

[RedRum]

Couple other questions: Was your $2 raise a minraise, a 4xbb, an 8xbb?

I also don't see stack sizes, if this is $25, I'm probably going to push here and expect KQ/KT-Kx often enough to make it worth while.

I think the only thing you're reasonably behind here is KJ; AA and KK are possible, but I'd expect an original raise PF from one of them.

Drink More,
RedRum

[jkkkk]

50NL

4xBB

I had $50, he covered.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the only thing you're reasonably behind here is KJ; AA and KK are possible, but I'd expect an original raise PF from one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

JJ? 22?

pushing would be really dumb

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
if you're going to fold the turn when nothing has changed, then you should fold the flop. that's not a bad play against a typically passive TAG...you're generally only going to play a big pot with them when you're behind.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is not true. It is quite possible for someone to be a 'fire one bullet' kinda guy. Meaning you are ahead, say 50% of the time, on the flop, but once he fires again on the turn, you are ahead 0% of the time. Makes call flop, fold turn and perfectly acceptable line. In fact, that is probably how I play this if the guy is tight. Maybe he is betting into me with top pair on the flop. But once I call, I expect him to slow down. Once he's not slowing down, I expect him to have a set or two pair almost all the time here. Obviously no one right answer. I don't really like a flop raise, though. Seems like a no-win situation for you. I would prefer just call, call, call over raising the flop.

[Jocke_F]

If he is a classig tag he is not in there with KJ from out of position and I find KK unlikely because of the preflop action, depending on how often he usually raised preflop, you can incluce/exclude JJ, so I either think he is very weak with some missed hand or has 22 possibly JJ, I would raise the flop and take home the pot right there so I dont have to second guess myself, which really will be the problem by just calling, it looks weak and he might very well fire a second bullet and you have no clue where you are at, and now it costs much more to raise. If he reraise I give him credit for a set on this fairly drawless board and fold

[jonnyUCB]

raise more preflop. Limits TAGs holdings immensely. Even during my TAG stages I was prone to call a small raise OOP with QK.

[Macquarie]

I agree....I don't like raising this flop. Isn't this just offering our money to villain who takes it when he is ahead?

Raising the flop is certainly the surest way to find out where we are in the hand, but it's also expensive. For a similar price as a raise to $15, we can call the flop, and probably call a turn bet too. But this way we get to find out whether he checks the turn or the river! Surely this is a better way to find out if we are against a set or two pair for the same price, and also earns us more money from KQ.

If he fires on the flop, turn and river, we lay it down on the river, costing a similar amount as the flop raise. If he checks on the turn or river, we get to take it to showdown for the same price as the flop raise.

I'm partly playing devil's advocate here, I'm not sure this is what I'd do, but I'd like to see what people think.

[jkkkk]

Hmm I think what TWP says has some merit, a player like this doesn't fire twice at a board of this texture without a holding.

However, I still think calling isn't such a good idea.

[soah]

[ QUOTE ]
raise more preflop. Limits TAGs holdings immensely. Even during my TAG stages I was prone to call a small raise OOP with QK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Driving out KQo isn't the purpose of the preflop raise.

[soah]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you're going to fold the turn when nothing has changed, then you should fold the flop. that's not a bad play against a typically passive TAG...you're generally only going to play a big pot with them when you're behind.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is not true. It is quite possible for someone to be a 'fire one bullet' kinda guy. Meaning you are ahead, say 50% of the time, on the flop, but once he fires again on the turn, you are ahead 0% of the time. Makes call flop, fold turn and perfectly acceptable line. In fact, that is probably how I play this if the guy is tight. Maybe he is betting into me with top pair on the flop. But once I call, I expect him to slow down. Once he's not slowing down, I expect him to have a set or two pair almost all the time here. Obviously no one right answer. I don't really like a flop raise, though. Seems like a no-win situation for you. I would prefer just call, call, call over raising the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the correct answer.