1st Hand of 50+5

[Chief911]

No notes on any of the players.

MP raises to 95. Called by the next two players to act. Folded to me in the SB with AKs.

What do you do, and why?

Nick

[citanul]

is this a party game?

[Chief911]

Yes.

[Freudian]

The downside to re-raising is that you are out of position. I think calling and seeing what the flop brings is not horrible.

I can even see folding as an option if you want to focus on stack preservation early on.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
The downside to re-raising is that you are out of position. I think calling and seeing what the flop brings is not horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

if i were to raise here, i'd push. so out of position isn't really that bad.
i don't think that calling could be all that bad. but i also don't know the average 55s player very well right now. something tells me that given the avg player, pushing is going to be more right than calling and playing post flop.

citanul

[gumpzilla]

Usually I'm calling, figuring that when I hit on the flop I'll likely be able to get a c/r in and I'll be able to exit pretty cheaply when I whiff. However, since it's the first hand, there's an increased chance that a PF push can get called by dominated hands here, so pushing is not without its merits as well. I'm not feeling inclined to work out which is better given some reasonable assumptions at the moment, though.

[fnord_too]

Were it not for the limpers I would raise to between 250 and 300 with the intention of getting all in pre flop or playing post flop otherwise. As is I think just pushing is best here. Raising to 500 is an option since you get to act first on the flop and can stop and go, but I'd just as soon get the betting done with right now. I don't like letting something like JJ off the hook if I hit my hand, and I really don't like letting a hand like 88 make a good call when an A or K does not hit. Follow the cow, right to the next S&G if need be.

[zambonidrivr]

a little suprised this is a $55. sounds more like a 10 to me. what are these people calling with? my guess is low to med pocket pairs. with that much preflp action, i think calling is out of the question. so you flop a king or an ace... and someone pushes, then what? good chance you're beat. i like pushing or folding and leaning towards pushing... and being called by kings, jacks, and a donk with 67 sooted (who scoops the pot hitting the river straight).

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The downside to re-raising is that you are out of position. I think calling and seeing what the flop brings is not horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

if i were to raise here, i'd push. so out of position isn't really that bad.
i don't think that calling could be all that bad. but i also don't know the average 55s player very well right now. something tells me that given the avg player, pushing is going to be more right than calling and playing post flop.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

Duh, I forgot calling was an option! Calling has a lot of merit, and now I don't know if I like that more than pushing or not.

[tigerite]

There's between 2 and 5 times your stack in the pot.

Push.

[11t]

The blinds start at 10/15 on party correct? If this is true I wouldn't recommend calling here, although seeing a flop with 2 other ppl with AK early on isn't awful. Often times you will double thru somebody with aq/aj and you just have to be careful to not get too involved if there is a lot of action.

However I dislike ivesting 1/10th of my stack preflop with the intention of check/folding the flop if I miss it and folding to a lot of action so I think calling here isn't the best option. The 7xBB raise isn't too indicative of AA/KK but I could see somebody doing that with KK who doesn't want to see a flop.

Anyways if you are getting involved, push, but don't be too surprised when somebody flips over QQ/JJ and you don't improve.

I think you can fold here though without puking. I would probably fold here like 60% of the time and push 40% of the time and definitely let AQ go.

[Lady Dont Tekno]

If this was $11-$33 I'd probably push but this is exactly why those extra 200 chips are so useful. If you just call you're getting great odds. Sure it's not going to be easy postflop play, at least one of you're opponents has a mid-pocket pair that you have to watch out for among other things.

Personally, and flame me if you will, I think pushing this early is silly and a cop out. Nick B had a post awhile ago about not getting caught up in all the pushing and folding and just playing solid poker. I think that's great advice here. If you miss the flop, 95 chips down -- boo hoo.

But live to play again.

EDIT: Anyone that's wondering -- Folding is the second best option.

LDT

[adanthar]

Reraising to anything less than a push is suicidal in those, especially OOP. That leaves calling or pushing (I will fold this approximately never).

Pushing will generally get called, even in a $55, but usually not by AQ. One of the two and a half idiots will call with some medium pair and you'll be slightly worse than a flip with dead money. It's not bad, but I usually just see a flop since you're getting odds to hit it.

PS: 'if someone pushes on a flop that hits you, you are beat' is like the worst advice ever and I've doubled up so many times off hands like that it isn't funny.

[11t]

Calling here is unl33t due to the size of the pot and raise.

If it was 45 to call I would suggest calling.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
There's between 2 and 5 times your stack in the pot.

Push.

[/ QUOTE ]

god i'm hoping that you mean "1/2 and 1/5."

wouldn't you like to oh, consider what your opponents might have before following some idiotic rule like "eh, there's chips in the pot, i push?"

citanul

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
Were it not for the limpers I would raise to between 250 and 300 with the intention of getting all in pre flop or playing post flop otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not a fan of committing 30% of my stack on the first hand with AK out of position. When he calls my reraise and I miss the flop, all of my options suck. A continuation bet pot commits me. If I'm going to push this flop, I'd rather just do it preflop. Check/folding would make me sad as well.

I usually just call preflop oop.

[Chief911]

I cannot see how calling can even be close to right here. Playing out of position with AK for 1/10th your stack? Those of you that advocate calling here, you must know that most likely one of the three is going to push or atleast pot the flop. What flop would you be willing to call that with?

I'll post results in a bit, but they are fairly irrelevent to the discussion.

Nick

[11t]

Is my thinking that since it is 85 to call which is roughly 10% of your stack makes calling here foolish flawed?

I realize you are getting 2:1 and I understand the merits of seeing a flop with AK OOP versus 2 opponents but the 7xbb raise kind of throws me off.

[Bluff Daddy]

[ QUOTE ]
a little suprised this is a $55. sounds more like a 10 to me. what are these people calling with? my guess is low to med pocket pairs. with that much preflp action, i think calling is out of the question. so you flop a king or an ace... and someone pushes, then what? good chance you're beat. i like pushing or folding and leaning towards pushing... and being called by kings, jacks, and a donk with 67 sooted (who scoops the pot hitting the river straight).

[/ QUOTE ]

do you play the 55's? The other day I was bb w/ kk (level 1), utg raises to 90 gets 4 callers, I push, Utg calls and one of the mp calls w/ AJs, hits his flush then types in sorry pot odds and last night I had one 4 handed in level 3

[Registrationtoo]

call. check-raise flop if ace/king falls

[zambonidrivr]

yeah i play them. and i know what you mean. variance and donks are a biaaaatch

[Jay36489]

If this is a late night game I call and pot or push an A or K. If its early and people are playing somewhat sanely I might get out of the way. I don't see any reason to push here. I don't see anything you are dominating calling your push, but PPs will. People are very willing to take coinflips early with god knows what, and I don't want to do that this early.

[11t]

Late game I push this 100% of the time and I don't think calling is even close.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Is my thinking that since it is 85 to call which is roughly 10% of your stack makes calling here foolish flawed?

I realize you are getting 2:1 and I understand the merits of seeing a flop with AK OOP versus 2 opponents but the 7xbb raise kind of throws me off.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're getting 3:1 vs. 3 people, not 2.

[11t]

GG reading.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
I cannot see how calling can even be close to right here. Playing out of position with AK for 1/10th your stack? Those of you that advocate calling here, you must know that most likely one of the three is going to push or atleast pot the flop. What flop would you be willing to call that with?

I'll post results in a bit, but they are fairly irrelevent to the discussion.

Nick

[/ QUOTE ]

I have seen many times 3-4 way raised action like this that gets checked through on the flop and the turn. More often I see a 300ish bet on the flop. I am willing to get my money in on any flop with TPTK (except maybe something monotone, or if there is a push and a call in front of me) since I think I am ahead more often than not on those flops. Also, there is a chance to flop a flush draw and two overs, which will let you c/r a weak bet by the pfr. I am definitely not saying calling is the way to go, I am kind of torn, but I don't think calling is bad at all. I don't expect any of the three opponents in this hand to play particularly well post flop, since one opened for 6.33BB and another cold called. The overcaller has a lot more hands he can overcall with and not be playing badly, which is a nudge in the push direction since he will most likely fold if he is decent and if not there is a good chance he makes an awful call with something like AT or KJ (something else I see a lot of).

[Chief911]

Fnord,

Good response. So what range of hands do you put the PRF on making the following assumption:

He's a solid player.

Now, I dont know that. But lets pretend that he is. What hands would a solid player raise that much PF in level 1 from MP?

Nick

[lacky]

If I'm playing continously, as in starting one as soon as the last one ends, I'd push, get called most likely by a pair, race and double or move on.

If I'm playing in sets I'd be more likely to call and play the flop.

Steve

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
I cannot see how calling can even be close to right here. Playing out of position with AK for 1/10th your stack?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it's certainly not ideal, but we're getting 3:1 on the call and a hand I actually feel pretty good about playing postflop here. I'm also very comfortable playing these games starting with a stack of 800, so committing 1/10 of my stack here doesn't concern me that much. I think the immediate odds plus the implied odds when I hit the flop are solid.

[ QUOTE ]
Those of you that advocate calling here, you must know that most likely one of the three is going to push or atleast pot the flop. What flop would you be willing to call that with?

[/ QUOTE ]

If one person pushes and the flop is A or K high, I'll instacall most players. I'm also happy c/ring a pot sized bet when I hit. There will surely be some scary flops involving multiple suited broadways or something like that where I might need to tread lightly - but in general this type of action on the first hand of a $55 doesn't scare me too much.

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There's between 2 and 5 times your stack in the pot.

Push.

[/ QUOTE ]

god i'm hoping that you mean "1/2 and 1/5."

wouldn't you like to oh, consider what your opponents might have before following some idiotic rule like "eh, there's chips in the pot, i push?"

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

It's in Sklansky's TPFAP book, no less, that exact rule.

EDIT: Obviously, this only applies to AK, preflop. I thought that was obvious.

[lacky]

Folding the 3rd best starting hand in the game 60% of the time here is awful, really.

Steve

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
What hands would a solid player raise that much PF in level 1 from MP?



[/ QUOTE ]

I put him on a range of AA, KK, QQ, AK for sure, perhaps JJ.

[Chief911]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What hands would a solid player raise that much PF in level 1 from MP?



[/ QUOTE ]

I put him on a range of AA, KK, QQ, AK for sure, perhaps JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious? That's it huh? Have you played the $50+5's recently?

Nick

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
What hands would a solid player raise that much PF in level 1 from MP?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know whether you consider me a solid player, but my range is probably something like:

ATs+/AJo+/KQs/99+

[tech]

[ QUOTE ]
He's a solid player. Now, I dont know that. But lets pretend that he is. What hands would a solid player raise that much PF in level 1 from MP?


[/ QUOTE ]

There aren't many solid players at the 55s who open raise to 95 on level 1. If one of them did, I would not at all expect to see AA or KK, which is really all you are worried about here.

I definitely play the hand, and I lean toward a push. I think you will simply take down the pot far more often than others have implied. If you get called, you probably won't be far behind and there is a reasonable chance you will be way ahead.

[Jay36489]

Why would you raise so much? I usually raise 4x BB in lvl 1.

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He's a solid player. Now, I dont know that. But lets pretend that he is. What hands would a solid player raise that much PF in level 1 from MP?


[/ QUOTE ]

There aren't many solid players at the 55s who open raise to 95 on level 1. If one of them did, I would not at all expect to see AA or KK, which is really all you are worried about here.

I definitely play the hand, and I lean toward a push. I think you will simply take down the pot far more often than others have implied. If you get called, you probably won't be far behind and there is a reasonable chance you will be way ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. And this is why it's such a good push with AK and with the pot as it is.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
Fnord,

Good response. So what range of hands do you put the PRF on making the following assumption:

He's a solid player.

Now, I dont know that. But lets pretend that he is. What hands would a solid player raise that much PF in level 1 from MP?

Nick

[/ QUOTE ]

That's hard, since I think his opening bet is too much, even for early stages in a tourney where some advocate opening for more. If by solid you mean he thinks and is clever (not the boring and predictable solid), I think he could have a lot of hands here from middle pairs to suited connectors. I would think it less likely he has AA/KK unless he knows there are donks acting behind him who will call big bets for no good reason (which he very well may.) If he is a thinking, tricky player though, he may occasionally make this sort of bet with something like 78s knowing that he will likely pick up the blinds, but if he does not will likely pick up the pot when he misses with a continuation (depending on flop texture), or maybe stack someone when the flop hits him hard and no one can put him on his hand. Basically, I could see someone doing this for Shania since it is probably not terribly -EV, and even clueless donks are going to notice someone raising that much with a really weak holding if his hand gets shown down.

I think I am going to try this some tonight. Sounds fun.

[KingMedicine]

[ QUOTE ]
call. check-raise flop if ace/king falls

[/ QUOTE ]

this is my line 100% of the time in this situation. there's a huge chance that someone will make a bet at an A or K high flop and then you check raise it all in.

If someone pushes, you call, and if it was an AA pushing on a K high flop, or in those very very rare circumstances where its AA on an A high flop or a KK on a K high flop then you lose and open another. easy. not seeing the difficulty here.

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you serious? That's it huh? Have you played the $50+5's recently?

Nick

[/ QUOTE ]

shrug, not much for the past couple weeks. I tend to see "solid" players playing pretty tight in level 1. If they're raising that much, I expect to see a strong hand. That's certainly the mindset for a lot of the 2+2 type players who end up there from these forums.

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
I would probably fold here like 60% of the time and push 40% of the time and definitely let AQ go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you haven't made your mind up how to play it? It's fine to have not made up your mind, but your not saying you think the best way to play it is to mix it up like that, are you?

Currently, I think calling is better, though I have thought and probably will think again at some point that pushing is better.

It's not that unlikely that someone will call behind and if they do, you are getting immediate odds on the call. If you hit, you should be able to get a little more money out of QQ, JJ, TT or whatever. If you push, you will probably fold AQ, AJ, AT, KQ or even the KJ that the raiser might be holding and you may stack them if you hit. And you still might win the pot even if you don't hit.

[11t]

Yah, when I originally posted I only saw there were 2 people to the flop in front of you. With 3 I think calling gains quite a bit of ground, however I still dislike putting 1/10th of my stack into a pot OOP in early levels with a hand that is so tricky to play in a multi-way pot.

Lets say you call, the flop comes A-face-x. You bet 1/2 to 2/3rds of the pot and somebody pushes from later position. Are you forced to go broke here?

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Lets say you call, the flop comes A-face-x. You bet 1/2 to 2/3rds of the pot and somebody pushes from later position. Are you forced to go broke here?

[/ QUOTE ]

More like forced to double up here (not that I'd bet out)

[DangerGoodson]

I think both calling and pushing are both good plays.


I think pushing wins you the pot right there a large precentage of the time and if you are called the only hands you really fear is AA or KK.

I think calling gives you a chance to win bigger pots. Just calling allows you to represent alot of different hands, so it opens you up to a few different plays. Also based on the action preflop I bet atleast one (or more) of the other players have an Ace or King in their hand so if you hit a A or K on the flop, I think you will be in a dominating position to pick up some chips, weither it be check raising or leading out.

But I'm a donk,
Danger

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
Lets say you call, the flop comes A-face-x. You bet 1/2 to 2/3rds of the pot and somebody pushes from later position. Are you forced to go broke here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'm with Adanthar. If I bet 1/2 pot it is because I'm looking for a reraise to call and (hopefully) double up. 2/3 would be more like making sure that draws are paying a good price.

As far as whether I bet out or not, I don't do one or the other necessarily. I hope my decision here isn't just random and depends on things like the opponent's play, exact number of opponents and the exact board, but I certainly haven't set into stone when I lead out or not.

[arod15]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The downside to re-raising is that you are out of position. I think calling and seeing what the flop brings is not horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

if i were to raise here, i'd push. so out of position isn't really that bad.
i don't think that calling could be all that bad. but i also don't know the average 55s player very well right now. something tells me that given the avg player, pushing is going to be more right than calling and playing post flop.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]
Push here it eliminates the postion problem and i suspect villian will fold. If not with the 120 in the pot i think your at worst a coinflip situiation. If you win this you should cruise to the money.

[Colonel Kataffy]

I'm not certian, but I think the best play would be to call and check raise any flop with an Ace, King or flush draw. Check/fold almost everything else.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

Push here it eliminates the postion problem and i suspect villian will fold. If not with the 120 in the pot i think your at worst a coinflip situiation. If you win this you should cruise to the money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are we even reading the same post?

There are three people in the pot ahead, more like 300 in the pot already, and pushing and having everybody fold, which is probably the best for you if you push, doesn't put you anywhere near able to cruise into the money. Hell, even getting up to 2200 doesn't really put you into that territory.

[durron597]

Follow the cow.

http://www.bockhouse.com/images/pushit.jpg

[Bigwig]

The pots big enough now to warrant a push, IMO.

EDIT--BTW, is everyone in this damn forum now a Moderator?

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
EDIT--BTW, is everyone in this damn forum now a Moderator?

[/ QUOTE ]

Chief isn't a moderator for this forum, just for the Multitable forum.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What hands would a solid player raise that much PF in level 1 from MP?



[/ QUOTE ]

I put him on a range of AA, KK, QQ, AK for sure, perhaps JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's FAR too tight. It's FAR too tight for an EP raiser at the $50s on level 1.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
Fnord,

Good response. So what range of hands do you put the PRF on making the following assumption:

He's a solid player.

Now, I dont know that. But lets pretend that he is. What hands would a solid player raise that much PF in level 1 from MP?

Nick

[/ QUOTE ]

A solid player in level 2 will only be raising AQ+, QQ+, maybe JJ, and TT less likely.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
That's FAR too tight. It's FAR too tight for an EP raiser at the $50s on level 1

[/ QUOTE ]

for an average player yes, for a solid player, definately not.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
Reraising to anything less than a push is suicidal in those, especially OOP. That leaves calling or pushing (I will fold this approximately never).

Pushing will generally get called, even in a $55, but usually not by AQ. One of the two and a half idiots will call with some medium pair and you'll be slightly worse than a flip with dead money. It's not bad, but I usually just see a flop since you're getting odds to hit it.

PS: 'if someone pushes on a flop that hits you, you are beat' is like the worst advice ever and I've doubled up so many times off hands like that it isn't funny.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is by far the correct answer. If you indeed push, I will full well guarantee that you will effectively be flipping a coin for all of your chips. Your edge simply is not big enough to be pushing here.

[Chief911]

Results:

With atleast a 25% chance that they either A) Fold or B) Have Ax that is AK or worse, and not wanting to see a flop from out of position. I pushed.

Got called twice. MP raiser had JJ. The other caller had AQ.

Nick

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
Results:

With atleast a 25% chance that they either A) Fold or B) Have Ax that is AK or worse, and not wanting to see a flop from out of position. I pushed.

Got called twice. MP raiser had JJ. The other caller had AQ.

Nick

[/ QUOTE ]

About as good as you could hope for.