Is it a sin to go broke early with top pair?

[Vee Quiva]

I heard Phil Gordon say it is the cardinal sin of tournament poker to go broke early (with a lot of chips)with only a pair. I understand he was referring to large multitable tournaments, but what about the early stages of sit-n-gos?

Here's an excellent personal example:
One table Satellite for the WSOP $125. Start with 1000 chips and blinds start at 25-25. Very first hand, no reads.

I am 5 spots off the big blind. Two early limpers and I am dealt A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifA /images/graemlins/club.gif. I raise to 100 (4x the blind). All fold to the original limpers who both call.

$350 in the pot to the flop.

K /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Checked to me and I bet $300. First player folds and second player reraises all in for his remaining $900. Pot now has my $300 + original $350 + opponents $900 for $1550.

Do you make this call?

Do you make this call holding Ace King instead of pocket Aces?

Is there a difference in making the call online vs. live?

Please discuss, I give my thinking a little later.

[Phill S]

Instead of hitting the call button, i hit it repeatedly just in case the software didnt pick it up first time.

Things for you to consider:
1, pay out structures, take more chance when early if pays winner only, you want to dominate if you can
2, relative skill of players
3, reads if any
4, blind structure in relation to stack sizes

Im sure im missing other factors, but these are the main ones.

Phill

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you make this call?

Do you make this call holding Ace King instead of pocket Aces?

Is there a difference in making the call online vs. live?

Please discuss, I give my thinking a little later.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes

yes

yes

For the first question, i make the call because the range of hands he would make this play with includes A LOT of hands I am ahead of (unpaired four flush, KJ, KT, AK, JT), very few hands I'm behind (KQ, possibly 77), and maybe one or two that I'm about even money with (paired four flush, JsTs).

In addition, your bet looks like (well, and is) a CB, not signifying any great deal of strength on your part. So he doesn't have to hold KQ to push here. Absent a very strong read, I am calling here.

I make the call with AK for many of the same reasons.

It's different live merely because of your capacity to gain more advanced tells on players in the middle of a hand. Off the top of my head, I can't even think of something a player would do here that would induce a fold from me, but I'm sure there's something.

Hope this helped.

[Vee Quiva]

In the example, I stared at my opponent and he looked very stiff and worried. Basically I decided that he did not want a call. So I called and he turned over King-5. Obviously this was a bone head play on his part, but the poker gods did not cooperate as he hit his 5 on the river for 2 pair. That's poker.

I think in a satellite sit n go where only the winner gets paid, it's probably an autocall since you need to get a hold of a lot chips fast.

In a party poker sit-n-go, I still think there may be an argument for laying this hand down. If you fold you still have 600 which is enough to come back from and still make the money. Plus King Queen for two pair is a likely hand here as well as a set (Although I think a set would probably just call to slow play instead of raising all in). If the flop is more ragged, I call every time.

[tigerite]

No, there is no (or extremely little) argument for laying it down. Call. Oh and raise more preflop, not loads more, just a little.

[DasLeben]

First of all, this is an overpair, which is a different animal than top pair. I can see laying down TPGK early on with sufficient action ahead, but with aces as an overpair, I go broke here every time.

[Vetstadium]

I can not and will not lay it down I do preflop more than that usually. Seems when only preflop raise of 4x gets me in trouble. In a party $33 blinds 15/30 I make it 150 to go usually if like 3 or 4 limpers bump it to $200. I would rather win a small amount with my aces than get them cracked by a small preflop.

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
I heard Phil Gordon say it is the cardinal sin of tournament poker to go broke early (with a lot of chips)with only a pair. I understand he was referring to large multitable tournaments, but what about the early stages of sit-n-gos?

Here's an excellent personal example:
One table Satellite for the WSOP $125. Start with 1000 chips and blinds start at 25-25. Very first hand, no reads.

I am 5 spots off the big blind. Two early limpers and I am dealt A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifA /images/graemlins/club.gif. I raise to 100 (4x the blind). All fold to the original limpers who both call.

$350 in the pot to the flop.

K /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Checked to me and I bet $300. First player folds and second player reraises all in for his remaining $900. Pot now has my $300 + original $350 + opponents $900 for $1550.

Do you make this call?

Do you make this call holding Ace King instead of pocket Aces?

Is there a difference in making the call online vs. live?

Please discuss, I give my thinking a little later.

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF?? I thought this was going to be an interesting discussion but you don't have top pair you have OVERPAIR....INSTACALL.

[smb394]

As others said, this is an auto-call.

Ignoring EV, I might be even quicker calling online (1 sec. vs 2 seconds) than calling live b/c I can just fire up another game instantly if I end up losing.

[lastchance]

So, there were two limpers pf, and 25/25, and you only raised it t100? Meh, I don't like it much. I'd make it t125-t150, and I think it's a lot better.

[raptor517]

dint read any of the other responses, so pardon a repeat. i raise more pf. make it 125-150. these idiots call everything, its like a 5+1 the 125s running at rio. after firing at the pot on the flop, i cant call fast enough. if he has KQ, he has KQ. sall good, play for first. holla

[pergesu]

If you're gonna fold here, might as well dump your aces preflop

[the shadow]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're gonna fold here, might as well dump your aces preflop


[/ QUOTE ]

shhhh -- watch what you say or citanul might lock this thread. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

The Shadow

[Phill S]

Ive been wondering for a few days (since just after citanul became mod), how did you convince him to change the colour of your name?

Can i have my name as a different colour citanul? Not having a list of options, i choose purple.

Phill

[durron597]

Raise more preflop. Otherwise fine.

[the shadow]

citanul, who's really a nice guy but tries to hide it, just offered to put my name in black without me even asking.

Not to hijack this thread, which has pretty much died out, but your response raises the question of which colors best fit which posters.

To get it started, here're a few suggestions:

<font color="blue">blue</font> bluefeet (duh!) or strassa, at least if it's duke blue and not that [censored] carolina blue

<font color="red">red</font> che or maybe apathy

<font color="pink">pink</font> dare i say yugo?

<font color="black">The Shadow</font>

[rydazzle]

[ QUOTE ]
In addition, your bet looks like (well, and is) a CB, not signifying any great deal of strength on your part.

[/ QUOTE ]

This looks like top pair/shut-out draws bet to me, not a CB. KQo is a limping hand for an agressive style, and worth a call since he capped the betting...but not likely. Ax suited looks good and KJ: yours was a pretty big raise for rockets PF, looks like a bet for QQ, JJ maybe TT. If you hit the set of Q's you wouldn't have made such a heavy bet on the flop, leaving you with JJ. A draw to the flush or the top pair might be good from that read...

I call.

Edit: The PF raise wasn't to big. 4x+ is good with the limpers, my mistake.

[Seadood228]

I think Gordon is definitely referring to a deeper stacked tournament, and definitely not a WTA or a sat.

I beat him to the pot in this situation.

[AliasMrJones]

This is a thinly disguised bad beat whine.

As others have pointed out, you have an overpair, not TP. Say you had AK and you did have TP, would you be happy that your opponent turned over K5? This isn't really a case of going broke with top pair, this is a case of getting drawn out on when you're way ahead.