Two heads up hands

[citanul]

Opponent is a very good 2+2er. Has pushed something like 5/6 sb hands so far.

Hero has been tight, not by his own volition, but that should be his image at the moment "too tight." Hero has not yet pushed heads up.

Stacks even, blinds 250/500.
Two hands in a row:

hand 1:
Opponent pushes, hero has J7s, and ...?

hand 2:
hero has Q4o, hero ...?

citanul

[Phill S]

Didnt some mod on this forum point someone to a 'what is a hand' post not too long ago. In it it had a list of info about which we can give informed answers.

Now, we have your cards, blinds and your reads, but what we are missing is buy in, and by definition stack sizes (800 chip game, 1000 chip game?).

Welcome to the forum, i hope you learn the search function then i wouldnt need to point stuff like this out.

Phill

[mlagoo]

First off, I can't imagine going 11/12 hands heads up (getting this from villian's SB pushes) at 250/500 (and whatever the previous blind was) without pushing -- i don't think i've ever been on a run of cards that bad. were you saying he had pushed that many sb hands from the time you had got down to 4 handed or so? i may be misunderstanding something.

apart from that, I don't think I can call the allin with jack high. while you're probably about even with his range of hands (read: any two cards), I just think this is a much better pushing hand than calling hand. obviously.

I'd push Q4 here. obviously a dog to most hands that would call, but given the great amount of FE you have, seems like a borderline push. especially given your tight image.

[citanul]

sorry about that /images/graemlins/smile.gif in actuality i guess since there *may* be some kind of adjustments to be made for the payout structure, i should give more information:

it's a step 5, so there's 10,000 chips in play.

payouts are nets of 1435 and 3435 for 2nd/1st respectively.

[Shillx]

Q4o is a fold if you turned your hand face up. I would guess that it is worth ~14 SB against a random hand, so you would be forced to fold since you are sitting on 19 SB. At game speed I'm pushing with it though since my opponent probably isn't going to call me with some better queens and some weak kings. In a real game against an opponent who can find a call, I would guess that it is worth about 20 SB. I push here.

I would fold J7s in your spot against an opponent moving in with 80-85% of his hands, but I think that it is super close. It is probably even +EV to call there but I never do. Leak?

Brad

[Phill S]

Whilst i cant disagree with your analysis, im mucking both hands.

Q4 cos you still have enough chips to look for better opportunies.

J7s prolly does well against his range, but again, plenty of chips. Your worth more than that hand.

Phill

[wiggs73]

I'd probably fold both of these with the intention of pushing the next hand with any 2.

Edit: This is assuming your stack is beginning to get small from the "too tight" play. If you somehow started with a huge advantage, then you probably don't need to push the next hand. With blinds where they are though, and assuming your stack is getting in the 3000 - 3500 range, I'd probably be pushing most anything to keep from getting blinded too far down. Also your pushes should get some respect if you've been playing tight.

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
This is assuming your stack is beginning to get small from the "too tight" play.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is the assumption i based my post on, but it seems like the other two reply/ers did not make this assumption. which leads me to believe i misinterpreted the OP somehow.

[Phill S]

I assume stack size is 5K at the time of the hands

Phill

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
Opponent is a very good 2+2er. Has pushed something like 5/6 sb hands so far.

Hero has been tight, not by his own volition, but that should be his image at the moment "too tight." Hero has not yet pushed heads up.

Stacks even, blinds 250/500.
Two hands in a row:

hand 1:
Opponent pushes, hero has J7s, and ...?

hand 2:
hero has Q4o, hero ...?

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold
Push

Next?

[Newt_Buggs]

hand 1: villain has already shown that he's capable of pushing less than any two against you since he has folded once. Also, since he's been pushing a lot he's probably expecting you to loosen up your calling range, which would cause him to push less here. Although I would still predict that he has a fairly wide pushing range, its not wide enough to call with J7s. He knows that he has a loose image so I really can't see him pushing the junk required to make this a good call.
hand 2: Its definitly close, but with you playing as tight as you have I think that you can get away with a push here. I obviously don't play the step 5s, but I really can't see him calling with things like QT and K9.

[ QUOTE ]
you still have enough chips to look for better opportunies.

[/ QUOTE ]
the villain seems to know what he's doing, so I really doubt that you can get an edge much beyond a coin flip HU in a step 5. Citanul really needs to be taking any small edge that he can get.

[Jay36489]

Does villian know you are a 2+2er?

[wiggs73]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably fold both of these with the intention of pushing the next hand with any 2.

Edit: This is assuming your stack is beginning to get small from the "too tight" play. If you somehow started with a huge advantage, then you probably don't need to push the next hand. With blinds where they are though, and assuming your stack is getting in the 3000 - 3500 range, I'd probably be pushing most anything to keep from getting blinded too far down. Also your pushes should get some respect if you've been playing tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quoting myself here because I misread the hand. I thought you were BB in each. So... I fold the first with the intention of pushing the next hand and then I push the Q4.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
Whilst i cant disagree with your analysis, im mucking both hands.

Q4 cos you still have enough chips to look for better opportunies.

J7s prolly does well against his range, but again, plenty of chips. Your worth more than that hand.

Phill

[/ QUOTE ]

People would really fold Q4 after not having pushed even once when heads-up?

Given the description, I'm pushing almost any hand here.

I don't think there's any reason to consider calling J7s in the first hand.

[citanul]

villain very very much knows i'm a 2+2er. like he said "are you citanul the 2+2 mod?"

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Whilst i cant disagree with your analysis, im mucking both hands.

Q4 cos you still have enough chips to look for better opportunies.

J7s prolly does well against his range, but again, plenty of chips. Your worth more than that hand.

Phill

[/ QUOTE ]

People would really fold Q4 after not having pushed even once when heads-up?

Given the description, I'm pushing almost any hand here.

I don't think there's any reason to consider calling J7s in the first hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, that was exactly my thinking. If you don't push Q4o, what DO you push?

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep, that was exactly my thinking. If you don't push Q4o, what DO you push?

[/ QUOTE ]

[Jay36489]

The I would fold first hand, push 2nd, and threaten to ban him if he knocks you out. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[citanul]

i did that too!

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
I assume stack size is 5K at the time of the hands

Phill

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I'm having trouble figuring out how this is the case if villian has pushed 5-6 SBs heads up and hero has not yet pushed. How is it still even, unless hero had a dominating chip lead to start heads up.

This thread is making my brain hurt. I think perhaps I'll just leave it alone.

[Phill S]

I assumed the two hands are half hypothetical. If the stack sizes arent 5K or close to it on both hands (ie was 5K hand with J7, was 4.5K Qx hand).

If this is the case, how did the guy come back from the 25 chips he must have had at the start of heads up. If this is like 10 hands after the even stacks, then it changes things.

Perhaps there are more questions than answers in this thread.

Phill

[citanul]

indeed, for god's sake people.

even stacks, don't worry how we got there. both hands are played in a row. so assume hero had 5.25k and then 4.75k if you want. hero has overly tight image, aggressor knows both this and everyone knows everyone is 2+2 and everyone knows everyone knows everyone is 2+2.

argh.

citanul

[microbet]

Second hand seems like a pretty clear push. It is not that far from being a Karlson-Sklansky push.

I think there are two possibilities for the opponent. One, he is scared and is pushing and calling almost everything because that is not a terrible strategy here and is certainly easy to implement. Two, he is pw3n'ing your BB and thinks he can continue to pw3n your BB. In one case his calling range is so tight that it is an easy push, in the other it is so loose that it is an easy push.

Anyway, that's my answer without the SNG analyzer.

[mlagoo]

haha, i wasnt trying to be too anal. i gave my answers in my first reply. the whole thing just confused me.

[Phill S]

[ QUOTE ]
haha, i wasnt trying to be too anal. i gave my answers in my first reply. the whole thing just confused me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assumed it was equal. Then i overthought it a little.

Phill

[Jman28]

I'd fold the J7s and push the Q4o.

I don't think either is that clear though. Even if you've been tight, he knows you're citanul and should know that you would push a wide range here.

With the J7s, I think you're a slight dog against his range, although you may have pot odds. Since you are up against a skilled opponent, I wouldn't fault you at all for calling.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
Opponent is a very good 2+2er. Has pushed something like 5/6 sb hands so far.

Hero has been tight, not by his own volition, but that should be his image at the moment "too tight." Hero has not yet pushed heads up.

Stacks even, blinds 250/500.
Two hands in a row:

hand 1:
Opponent pushes, hero has J7s, and ...?

hand 2:
hero has Q4o, hero ...?

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]


I would fold the J7s and push the Q4o.