Please help me with this QQ hand

[SonOfWestwood]

I seem to have major problems with hands like these. I'm not good enough to lay them down and I don't seem to know what to do throughout the hand to get a better idea of what I should do, and then I'm left with difficult river decisions. Plus, I've been waiting for a chance to get the CO's chips, and my anxiousness to do that may have also influenced the lame play of this hand.

Please comment on all streets and let me know what sorts of things you do and think about when playing a hand like this. I'm really looking for what sorts of things, if any, I can do and think about in the future to make playing, or folding, this hand easier in the later rounds instead of being faced with a difficult decision like I was.

CO's stats are 59%/22%/3.06/19%/48% 187 hands (probably 20-30 less at the time of this hand). His pre-flop raise means very little, as he raises things like 2 suited cards, 2 cards > 10, etc.

Hero: 44.95
CO: 77.21

All comments appreciated.

Party Poker NL25 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, CO raises to 0.85 (looked like he had the bet pot clicked), 1 fold, Hero raises to 2.5, CO calls 1.65

Flop: (~5 pot) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero bets 5.00, CO raises to 10.00, Hero calls 5.00.

I was thinking he may have had JJ or TT here, as I would have expected him to re-raise w/ KK or AA pre-flop, and I can't see him raising w/ 2 overcards.

Turn: (~25 pot) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO bets 10.00, Hero calls.

Should I have put out a blocking bet here of ~10, and shut down if he calls, and fold if he raises?

River: (~45 pot) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO bets 25.00, Hero ?? (I've got ~22.50 left)

Now I'm stuck. Nice situation I put myself in...

[Ghazban]

If you think he will be this aggressive with JJ-99, your line is fine. The ace on the end is not a scare card because its unlikely he's taken his line with AK. You need an excellent read at these stakes to lay down queens on this board. If you think you're good on the turn, you might as well put it all in there as I don't think you can fold the river.

[Laomedon]

What types of hands has CO been minraising your flop continuation bets with previously? That flop is pretty ideal for you, there is no chance CO has AA or KK. The only hands that you're realistically behind are A6 or 22.

This hand seems read dependent, if you think you're best on this flop why not c/r all-in on the turn? Or you could, as you suggested lead the turn then fold if you felt certain he had the 6. You played this pretty weakly as if you knew you were drawing to two outs on that flop. At the same time, I would think Villain's minraise indicates considerable strength unless he's putting you on overs and has something like 88 or 99.

You're pretty much committed on the river, I would call this bet and expect to see 77-JJ a high percentage of the time.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
...there is no chance CO has AA or KK. The only hands that you're realistically behind are A6 or 22.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not everybody on the planet 3bets AA/KK preflop. A6 and 22 are less realistic than AA and KK as they are usually not EP raising hands.

[Laomedon]

I actually didn't notice that CO originally raised. My bad. That certainly changes things substantially. At the same time, you could still discount AA or KK, although to a lesser extent. Now it seems much more like an aggressively played 1010...

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: (~5 pot) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero bets 5.00, CO raises to 10.00, Hero calls 5.00.

I was thinking he may have had JJ or TT here, as I would have expected him to re-raise w/ KK or AA pre-flop, and I can't see him raising w/ 2 overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, no sense in making reads if you aren't going to follow up on them. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Villian's miniraise more times than not is his way of getting information from you in case you are making a continuation bet with a non PP hand. With this flop, you should be prepared to get your whole stack in, sooner rather than later. Reraise him to about $25, and push the rest on the turn if he calls you.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (~25 pot) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO bets 10.00, Hero calls.

Should I have put out a blocking bet here of ~10, and shut down if he calls, and fold if he raises?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think you have the best hand it would be a value bet. You're concerned with 22 or 6x, and that's not too scary. Considering you just called behind on the flop, a check raise all in would have been nice here. I wouldn't be shutting down on this hand, but rather trying to get all my (and his) money in the pot.

You ended up playing this weakly, despite having a great holding with a good flop for you. I'm guessing he had Ax, and caught an ace to beat you. Be aggressive with your good hands and save yourself the headaches. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Laomedon]

[ QUOTE ]

With this flop, you should be prepared to get your whole stack in, sooner rather than later. Reraise him to about $25, and push the rest on the turn if he calls you.


[/ QUOTE ]

Reraise $25 would be kind of silly considering he had a stack of ~$40 going into the hand. I think either push his minraise or call and get it in on the turn either by betting out or c/r raising all-in.

[TheWorstPlayer]

I used to play this type of hand that way you played it. But now I don't. I no longer like to re-raise QQ OOP because then it is very hard to control the size of the pot. You end up having a marginal hand, but having to come out blasting on the flop into a pot which was already bloated preflop. And you really don't want to get 3-bet preflop, but some people will also trap with AA/KK preflop so you can't feel too confident when you don't get 3-bet. So I just call, c/c flop, c/c turn, bet river if he checked turn, usually. Or else just call all three streets if he bets the turn. Or sometimes bet river after calling turn. Depends on board, opponent, stacks, etc. But I prefer to try to control the size of the pot, starting with preflop, when I'm in this spot with QQ/JJ these days and think it is much better.

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]
At the same time, I would think Villain's minraise indicates considerable strength......

[/ QUOTE ]

If you purge this from your poker mind, your profits will increase. A miniraise is 2x your bet. Considerable strength is shown when you are raised 2.5x or 3x your bet. That is when you should be really concerned.

At these levels, the miniraise can be used:

--because the miniraiser doesn't believe you have a hand, and is using the minimal amount of money he can to try and push you off yours.
--because the miniraiser has TPGK and thinks that that is better than the junk that all the other fish at the table are playing, and forgets that you aren't a fish.
--because he is trying to get information from you. Are you making a continuation bet, or are you bluffing like all the other donkeys at the table? Miniraising is his default action to get info from you.
--because he is a fish
--because he is a donkey.
--because he is a maniac.

and last but not least:

--because he has a monster hand and is showing considerable strength.

I'm sure there are a few more that others can add; but, if miniraisers scare you and make you shut down and/or fold too much, that is -EV.

When good players miniraise, it's a cause for hesitation because they may be taking advantage of this miniraising epidemic at our levels, to get more money in the pot, when they have the best of it. I dislike miniraising, but do it from time to time when I want that automatic call that usually comes. When the bad to OK players miniraise, fear not.

[SonOfWestwood]

Is there any chance any of you could have gotten away from this hand? If so, what would it have taken? Or, to phrase it differently, if I could see him playing 22, 6x, JJ, TT, and maybe even 99 this way, can I find a fold in this hand, or do I have to get my money in eventually and believe that it is a +EV situation in the long run?

[wslee00]

I think the consensus is that you DON'T get away from this hand. c/r all-in on the turn and hope for the best

[Laomedon]

In this particular instance I advocated getting Hero's money on the turn because I thought it was unlikely that the Villain was holding the few hands that the Hero was behind.

I certainly agree that a minraise by no means universally indicates strength, however, as you mentioned there are absolutely instances in which a minraise is used to induce a reraise. Does this mean that in every instance that one encounters a minraise it indicates strenght and that they should automatically fold, no.

At the same time, in situations such as this one, it could very well be a situation where Villain hit his trips and is hoping to induce a reraise from the Hero. It could also mean that the Villain has 1010 or even AK or something and is simply trying to move the Hero off the hand while expending the least amount of $$$.

In any case, what I meant to say originally is that it is obviously ENTIRELY read dependent, just as you cannot assume strength from a minraise every time, you also cannot assume weakness everytime, it is conditional on the particular situation.

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

With this flop, you should be prepared to get your whole stack in, sooner rather than later. Reraise him to about $25, and push the rest on the turn if he calls you.


[/ QUOTE ]

Reraise $25 would be kind of silly considering he had a stack of ~$40 going into the hand. I think either push his minraise or call and get it in on the turn either by betting out or c/r raising all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he makes it $25 to go, Hero still has $17.45 behind. It's a balancing act. He might fold which is sorta OK. He may call or push, which is really OK. But, a push here by hero may intimidate villian so much he folds, whereas he would have called the smaller reraise. That's what you don't want. You're going all in, just doing it in stage 1 and stage 2. After all, how many times have you seen a villian call the reraise and then fold when you push on the turn? Too many times to count at this level.

[Laomedon]

From the tone in your posts it sounds like you lost this hand... As I mentioned in my most recent reply, you have to have a dead-on read to find a fold in this hand because Villain's flop raise could mean so many different hands, many of which you are way ahead of. I don't think you can fold here, it's too bad it didn't work out.

[NickPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
I used to play this type of hand that way you played it. But now I don't. I no longer like to re-raise QQ OOP because then it is very hard to control the size of the pot. You end up having a marginal hand, but having to come out blasting on the flop into a pot which was already bloated preflop. And you really don't want to get 3-bet preflop, but some people will also trap with AA/KK preflop so you can't feel too confident when you don't get 3-bet. So I just call, c/c flop, c/c turn, bet river if he checked turn, usually. Or else just call all three streets if he bets the turn. Or sometimes bet river after calling turn. Depends on board, opponent, stacks, etc. But I prefer to try to control the size of the pot, starting with preflop, when I'm in this spot with QQ/JJ these days and think it is much better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this line, except I would consider check raising a non A or K flop.

[Laomedon]

Why wouldn't a flop call followed by a c/r on the turn be +EV when compared with a reraise on the flop that pot commits you and will serve to fold out most hands that you beat anyway?

It would seem that $25 is almost equivalent to a push in terms of intended effect.

[NickPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At the same time, I would think Villain's minraise indicates considerable strength......

[/ QUOTE ]

If you purge this from your poker mind, your profits will increase. A miniraise is 2x your bet. Considerable strength is shown when you are raised 2.5x or 3x your bet. That is when you should be really concerned.

At these levels, the miniraise can be used:

--because the miniraiser doesn't believe you have a hand, and is using the minimal amount of money he can to try and push you off yours.
--because the miniraiser has TPGK and thinks that that is better than the junk that all the other fish at the table are playing, and forgets that you aren't a fish.
--because he is trying to get information from you. Are you making a continuation bet, or are you bluffing like all the other donkeys at the table? Miniraising is his default action to get info from you.
--because he is a fish
--because he is a donkey.
--because he is a maniac.

and last but not least:

--because he has a monster hand and is showing considerable strength.

I'm sure there are a few more that others can add; but, if miniraisers scare you and make you shut down and/or fold too much, that is -EV.

When good players miniraise, it's a cause for hesitation because they may be taking advantage of this miniraising epidemic at our levels, to get more money in the pot, when they have the best of it. I dislike miniraising, but do it from time to time when I want that automatic call that usually comes. When the bad to OK players miniraise, fear not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you to a point, but I think more and more people are miniraising monsters. I have found that in a lot of the games I have played recently my opponents are more scared of a miniraise than a bigger raise. I personally don't miniraise often, when I do it is one of 3 things: monster or I don't believe you or on a occassion a 3rd which is just to slow you down if I think I am best, but not real confident. To re-state though, as of late mini-raises I have ran into have meant monsters better than half the time.

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]

It would seem that $25 is almost equivalent to a push in terms of intended effect.

[/ QUOTE ]

From our perspective yes, it's as if we are pushing, because we know we are getting all in on the turn. SS villians aren't always aware of this, and would rather fold than showdown a weak all in hand, so they may call on the flop, and then fold the turn if they didn't improve.

As far as EV for the flop reraise. Our intention is to get all of our stack in the middle and to have him come along for the ride. Any type of big raise out of proportion to the pot size may scare him into folding. If we get all in 1/2 our stack on the flop, 1/2 on the turn, we are much more apt to be called for both bets, and sometimes just for the first bet and the fold to the 2nd, which is really good for us.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I used to play this type of hand that way you played it. But now I don't. I no longer like to re-raise QQ OOP because then it is very hard to control the size of the pot. You end up having a marginal hand, but having to come out blasting on the flop into a pot which was already bloated preflop. And you really don't want to get 3-bet preflop, but some people will also trap with AA/KK preflop so you can't feel too confident when you don't get 3-bet. So I just call, c/c flop, c/c turn, bet river if he checked turn, usually. Or else just call all three streets if he bets the turn. Or sometimes bet river after calling turn. Depends on board, opponent, stacks, etc. But I prefer to try to control the size of the pot, starting with preflop, when I'm in this spot with QQ/JJ these days and think it is much better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this line, except I would consider check raising a non A or K flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
That defeats the purpose of not re-raising preflop. You are WA/WB. What possible gain can you get from a flop c/r? Protecting against what is at worst case a 6 outer and much more likely to be a 2 or 3 outer? Any further turn betting you get from JJ/TT by just c/c on the flop more than compensates for that. As well as saving money when you are actually behind AA/KK by not c/r the flop. The whole point of my line preflop is pot control. C/r is completely counter to what we are trying to accomplish.

[ajmargarine]

If you see the miniraise on the turn or river, yes, chances are greater you are up against a monster hand trying to get as much $ from you as he can.

But, the flop miniraise (I guess I didn't say that in my miniraise manifesto /images/graemlins/smile.gif )....the miniraise on the flop, usually means all those things I said. 22 or 6x should call behind and then pop you on the turn or river. Hero's read was no AA or KK. So, he was probably just trying to scare Hero. (which seemed to work by the way /images/graemlins/frown.gif )

[SonOfWestwood]

I just wanted to get an idea if this is a hand that can be released. The concensus seems to be to actually get more money in the pot quicker, rather than even thinking about folding. Just wanted some confirmation that at least playing this hand through, given the range of possible hands, is reasonable.

I called off the rest of my chips on the river and Villain turned over J6c. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

I puked, and then bought in again.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
The concensus seems to be to actually get more money in the pot quicker

[/ QUOTE ]
This may be the consensus (or at least the majority view) but it is very wrong, IMO.

[Cased Heel]

Bet $3 on the flop, not $5.

If he minraises on the flop, call in hopes of hitting your miracle lady. If you miss you can throw out $4 and if raised again, just fold to his KK or AA.

I just don't see what good betting the pot does on that flop. You are only behind here to KK or AA (forgeet the 6's). KK and AA raises here (a bad thing). Anything worse possibly calls down and builds the pot (a good thing).

[SonOfWestwood]

I didn't mean to knock your line, as I like your line too. Just trying to say that I was seeing if anyone looks to fold this hand and if so, what it takes.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't mean to knock your line, as I like your line too. Just trying to say that I was seeing if anyone looks to fold this hand and if so, what it takes.

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, I wasn't offended, I just didn't want you to think that shoveling chips into this pot was agreed upon by all as being the correct thing to do.

[SonOfWestwood]

Yep, and the results of the hand show a reason for why shoving everything in ASAP isn't good. I've got lots to think about regarding this hand, and hands like this in the future.

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]

Oh, I wasn't offended, I just didn't want you to think that shoveling chips into this pot was agreed upon by all as being the correct thing to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Soooooo, do you wait for quads to get all your money in, or do you wait for the royal. /images/graemlins/grin.gif I suppose if you have 88, and the board is 88JJ2, villian may have pocket jack's, so check/calls are in order. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[TheWorstPlayer]

I wait until there is a likely worse hand for him to call me with or a likely draw for him to have for me to protect against.

[Laomedon]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep, and the results of the hand show a reason for why shoving everything in ASAP isn't good. I've got lots to think about regarding this hand, and hands like this in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

NO NO NO!!!

Didn't we go through this all before? If you had a specific reason for believing his min-raise on the flop meant he had you beat then FOLD THE FLOP. However, a high percentage of the time, that minraise will represent a hand you are WAY ahead of such as lower pockets or even over cards trying to make a move. If you play similar hands in a similar fashion every time you will LOSE LOSE LOSE.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yep, and the results of the hand show a reason for why shoving everything in ASAP isn't good. I've got lots to think about regarding this hand, and hands like this in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

NO NO NO!!!

Didn't we go through this all before? If you had a specific reason for believing his min-raise on the flop meant he had you beat then FOLD THE FLOP. However, a high percentage of the time, that minraise will represent a hand you are WAY ahead of such as lower pockets or even over cards trying to make a move. If you play similar hands in a similar fashion every time you will LOSE LOSE LOSE.

[/ QUOTE ]
What if the min-raise means that he is beat 40% of the time? Then what should his line be? And how do you like his line preflop and on the flop, before he gets raised?

[SonOfWestwood]

Sure, given the way I played it with the pre-flop re-raise, I can definitely see what you're talking about.

I also like the no re-raise pre-flop OOP line, to help control pot size. I'm just making sure to consider various options.

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep, and the results of the hand show a reason for why shoving everything in ASAP isn't good. I've got lots to think about regarding this hand, and hands like this in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with Laomedon...please don't think this way. The results of this hand may not have been good, but the results of this hand should not affect your thinking of how to play this in the future. You had the third best possible starting hand. You win this hand far, far, far more times than you lose it. Both lines advocated here are OK., and you have to lean toward the one that better fits your overall style of play. Be aggressive and get all your money in. Or try to control pot size, but maybe ending up all in if that's the way villian wants to play it. You seem to be more of a control the pot size kind of player right now, and that is fine. I am on the aggressive side, and that is just the way I feel I play best. But, you can't play the same way all the time, or the average players and above will eat you for lunch.

[SonOfWestwood]

I definitely know what you're talking about regarding playing the same way and getting worked. And that's why it's great that I've been able to read about the various ways to play the hand, and, more importantly, the reasoning behind all the different ways.

[Laomedon]

Preflop is fine in my mind, I can understand a flat call to control the pot size but I don't necessarily have a problem reraising especially at NL25 when people raise with J6... In this particular situation I cannot see how a minraise means he's beat 40% of the time.

He's losing to x6, 22, KK, and AA on this flop. AA and KK are unlikely if for no other reason then Villain would likely 3bet preflop or bet out on the flop, neither of which occured.

A random 6 and 22 is possible but, I cannot see how either of these holdings are very likely to be raised preflop.

So then we have the whole pantheon of holdings that are more representative of a preflop raise plus a min-raise on the flop, medium pocket pairs, aggressively played overcards, etc... These holdings, especially medium pockets are going to be much much more likely in this situation as opposed to AA, KK, a random 6, or 22 that it seems downright criminal to play this hand scared. With stacks this size, call the flop raise, c/r the turn and expect to see 1010 or something similar call an overwhelming majority of the time.

[IamLeach]

[ QUOTE ]

I wait until there is a likely worse hand for him to call me with or a likely draw for him to have for me to protect against.

[/ QUOTE ]
I wasn't sure which line I liked better, but this line just seems to make sense to me. Also I think i am beginning to see that Ultra Agg attitude you were talking about on this forum.

[ajmargarine]

Yes, and I am an aggressive player, tight-aggressive, so my perspective is how people are playing back against aggressive players. Against aggressive players, villians will play back (here, the miniraise) with a broader spectrum of hands because they are hoping to catch you the times that you don't have a good made hand (ie. they are tired of being pushed around, and know you don't have AA every hand you are playing aggressively, and the board is 662 for goodness sakes, what could he have there). When villian plays back at a more conservative player, that they know is a solid conservative player, it can mean more often that they think that their hand is better than yours.

(aside: it has been a pretty nice discussion)

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]
i am beginning to see that Ultra Agg attitude you were talking about

[/ QUOTE ]

You say that as if it were a bad thing. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Laomedon]

Have you read the other two recently made posts that feature minraises? I thought it was amusing based on this discussion that in both cases the Villains held monsters.

Minraised on the river (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=2859905&amp;page=0&amp;view=colla psed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1#Post2860272)

and

Donk minraised TWICE preflop (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=2852381&amp;page=0&amp;view=colla psed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1)

Wow, make that three posts:

Third time is a charm (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=2860046&amp;page=0&amp;view=colla psed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1)

[jonnyUCB]

[ QUOTE ]
The whole point of my line preflop is pot control. C/r is completely counter to what we are trying to accomplish.

[/ QUOTE ]

what about accomplishing getting the most in while ahead? Isn't your line a little advanced considering QQ will want to put all of it in on a flop like this.

Does a 3-bet preflop prevent you from exercising a little pot control? Not really. I would start to get a little more passive at the time OP gets min-raised on the flop, but only because stacks are this deep.

Im curious which line (agg vs passive) you think will make the most against JA or 99, for instance. This villian is 60 VPIP; you have to VB against him immensely.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
Does a 3-bet preflop prevent you from exercising a little pot control? Not really.

[/ QUOTE ]
I really think it does. He raises to $1, say, and you re-raise to, say, $4. Now he re-raises to $10. No way you're folding, right? Are you now only playing for set value? I don't want to. But now the pot is bigger. So now you check and he bets $20 on the flop. Do you call now? If so, the pot is already $60 going into the turn. And you're OOP.

However, if you just call the raise preflop, check to him and he bets, you can easily call the $2 and the pot is only $6 going into the turn. And he is severely underestimating your hand most likely. I really like my position here much better than in the alternative.

[Laomedon]

Or you reraise to 4, he reraises to 10 and you go all-in with him showing down AJ because this is NL25 not NL400... I think you're overestimating these guys.

[deadmoney98]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the consensus is that you DON'T get away from this hand. c/r all-in on the turn and hope for the best

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, what he said

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
Or you reraise to 4, he reraises to 10 and you go all-in with him showing down AJ because this is NL25 not NL400... I think you're overestimating these guys.

[/ QUOTE ]
OK, it's possible. If you're really playing against someone that bad, such that against him QQ on a JT8 board or whatever is NOT a marginal holding, then fine. Re-raise and inflate the pot preflop because you're happy getting it all in. Against good players, this should not be the goal, however.

[Laomedon]

[ QUOTE ]

OK, it's possible. If you're really playing against someone that bad, such that against him QQ on a JT8 board or whatever is NOT a marginal holding, then fine. Re-raise and inflate the pot preflop because you're happy getting it all in. Against good players, this should not be the goal, however.

[/ QUOTE ]

Naturally against normal opposition you must alter your strategy, but I do not believe I am incorrect in asserting that NL25 players cannot be considered "decent" for the most part and that a strategy of jamming preflop with QQ is generally +EV.

[jonnyUCB]

I think I like the information given to me in situation #1, where I can make a fold when behind. In the circumstance player X is raising from the CO only with a rank 1 hand (which our villian is far far from), I can see a case of WA/WB and MIGHT flat call here.

Yes I'd probably call the 4-bet in scenario #1 and its a leak in my game (maybe from my 6-max tendencies) but if its folded to me in the CO-&gt; blinds with QQ im going to assume its the best hand. Unless we're dealing with a TAG who only raises AQs+, JJ+, I think it should be standard to 3-bet.

Plus we give our opponents free cards up the ass with this passive line... are we always checking to our opp on the flop? So many negatives not to mention its pretty damn likely we're ahead.

Lastly, how are we losing less to AA/KK in line 2? Ch/fold to a river bet?

[soah]

Against the players I've been playing with lately, that raise on the flop is almost never a hand like JJ. You've put in the second raise preflop so they think you have a big pair or AK; they will either fold their mid pair or they will call and see how you behave on the turn. The raise, especially the minraise, means they are sure they are ahead of you. This means they can beat a big pair.

However, you're not playing in the same games I'm playing in, so your opponents may behave differently.

If you think you are ahead, you MUST raise all-in on the turn. Not only have you let this guy take a look at the river card, you're also offering him a free showdown. This is absolutely unacceptable. Once you make the decision to commit all your chips to the pot, you need to make sure they actually make it in there. The way you've played this hand you will get all your money in when you lose, but not when you win.

Exceptions obviously occur against overaggro stupid bluffers, etc.

[lange101]

Maybe 22 or 6x should have called the flop and repopped on the turn, but this guy reraises the flop, fires the turn strong and fires the river showing absolutely no fear of the A. I think that it is great that he reraised the flop. If I am put into this situation, the minraise usually screams fish to me, and fish usually check raise their monster hands on the flop. they don't usually call and raise the turn. I think that I am getting away from this hand pretty easily on the turn after calling the minraise on the flop. I hear people say that minraises are weak, but I completely disagree. The vast majority of the time that I have been minraised the hand is very strong. Especially at lower level nl. Maybe I'm playing too conservatively by not getting my money in the pot in this situation, but a minraise from a fish makes it easy for me to get away from the hand.

Edit: I also don't understand why people are not putting this guy on a 6. As the original poster already said, he will raise with anything. So if he will raise with anything he is either extremely skilled postflop, or a fish and I'm leaning towards fish. Putting him on TT, or 99 or anything like that is giving him too much credit. If he has AA or KK he is betting even more strongly. I just don't undersatnd why everyone thinks that the money should be in on the flop or turn. If he is as fishy as he sounds (which is pretty fishy raising with J6) then there are better spots than this to stack him off.