5-10 online hand played against the one and only JEFFAGE

[Tyler Durden]

This game is loose, kinda passive.
We'll make it a hand-reading exercise.

EP limps in, Jeffage raises it up, folded to me in the CO and I 3-bet. The EP limper folds and Jeffage calls. We're heads up.

Flop comes A /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif T /forums/images/icons/heart.gif.

Jeffage checks and calls.

Turn is 9 /forums/images/icons/club.gif.
Jeffage checkraises me, I 3-bet and he calls.

River is K /forums/images/icons/spade.gif.
Jeffage checks and calls.

What did each of us have? Who won the hand? What did you think of our respective plays?

Thanks much.


barelylegalteens.com

[rigoletto]

Tyler: TT
Jeffage: AK

Question: where do you find loose passive 5-10 online?

[Rube]

You have 99, Jeffage has AK

[mdlm]

I assume Jeffage is in MP.

Jeffage raises preflop: According to Jones he has AA-88, AKs-QJs, AQs, KJs, AJs, ATs, AK, KQ, AQ, AJ, or AT.

You reraise in LP: According to Jones you have AA-JJ, AKs, AQs, AK, or AQ

Flop is As4sTh. Jeffage checks and calls. Jones virtually never checks and calls so we will put Jeffage on top pair or better or a flush draw. This eliminates KK, QQ, JJ, 99, 88, KQ. So now Jeffage has: AA, TT, AKs, KsQs, QsJs, AQs, AQ, KsJs, AJs, ATs, AK, AQ, AJ, or AT.

You bet. Jones only bets with flush draw or top pair or better. This eliminates KK, QQ, and JJ and leaves you with AA, AKs, AQs, AK, or AQ.

Turn is 9c. Jeff check-raises you, you three-bet, and he calls. I think that this eliminates all of the flush draws (if they are not eliminated here, they are eliminated on the river), AA, and TT. This leaves Jeffage with AKs, AQs, AJs, ATs, AK, AQ, AJ, or AT. AJs and AJ are gone if Jeffage is not too aggressive. AQ and AQs might be gone as well.

You reraise. I don't think this eliminates anything. You have AA, AKs, AQs, AK, or AQ. Maybe AQ and AQs are gone.

River is Ks. Jeffage checks and calls. I don't think this eliminates anything. So Jeffage has AKs, AK, AQs, AQ, AJs, AJ, or AT. Maybe AKs and AK are gone if Jeffage is not too aggressive or he thinks that you will re-raise only with a better hand.

So I think you have: AA, AKs, or AK. Maybe AQs or AQ.
And Jeffage has: AT or ATs. Possibly AKs or AK. Maybe AQs, AQ, AJs, or AJ.

Rigo says you have TT. Jones does not re-raise in LP with TT.

Rube says you have 99. Jones does not re-raise in LP with 99.

I think it's interesting that both Rube and Rigo think that Jeffage is on AK. No one raises from MP with AT or ATs? Or does the lack of a re-raise on the turn eliminate these hands?

Also, I don't see what play moves you off AA. You bet at every possible opportunity.

I look forward to the results and your comments. Also if Jeffage would comment that would be great.

[Tyler Durden]

I'll post the results in about 5 or 6 hours. I'd like to get some more responses.

[Dynasty]

It doesn't matter what Jones does. It only matters what Tyler and Jeffage do.

[Tyler Durden]

That's what I was thinking. The Jones book is good for beginners, but after a certain point graduating to HEPFAP is a necessity.

[Jimbo]

Since I have played online with Jeffage I know his preflop raising standards are somewhat tricky. I guess Jeff raised with A/9 suited and you three bet with A/T. Without knowing what cards you really had it is impossible to rate your play of the hand. I would imagine that you won with A/T.

I should probably add that Jeffage may have had JJ and you had A/Q but consider this possibility less likely.

[Ed S.]

Tyler has A,K and Jeffage has A,Q. Jeffage is not on the spades draw. But he does have top pair I believe and he goes for the check raise on turn to hopefully force out Tyler. But Tyler I think has AK so he is not going anywhere.


Ed S.

[Homer]

I think you guys could have had any of the following hands (in descending order of likelihood):

Jeffage - ATs, AK
Tyler - TT, AA, AK, 99

I think you both played the hand fine.

-- Homer

[Homer]

I seriously doubt Tyler would three-bet Jeffage with AT, but I could be wrong.

-- Homer

[anatta]

You would three bet with AA, AK or TT, and probably play them all the same way. Jeffage can have AK. Chop it up?

[anatta]

What hands could AQ fold that Jeffage would want to eliminate?

[Jeffage]

Wow, I really want to put up the results and my thoughts, but I will wait till Tyler posts the results. It certainly was an interesting hand, and I am really enjoying the analysis here. If I gave my comments now though, it would prob. give it away so I'll wait till the results are posted. Definitely an interesting thread...

Jeff

[mdlm]

I interpreted Jeffage's check-call on the flop followed by the check-raise on the turn as the standard Dynasty/Clarkmeister play of check-calling on the flop with top pair against one opponent and then check-raising on the turn.

Jeffage then got surprised by Tyler's re-raise.

[Robk]

Rigo says you have TT. Jones does not re-raise in LP with TT.

Rube says you have 99. Jones does not re-raise in LP with 99.

Not reraising with these pairs (against most players) is a big mistake. Among the reasons for
doing so is that if you only reraise with AA, KK, QQ, and AK you are giving away way
too much information to observant opponents.

[Robk]

"I interpreted Jeffage's check-call on the flop followed by the check-raise on the turn as the standard
Dynasty/Clarkmeister play of check-calling on the flop with top pair against one opponent and then"
check-raising on the turn."

I have never played with Dynasty or Clarkmeister but I doubt this is their "standard play" against
a preflop threebettor.

[Tyler Durden]

Chop it up. We both had AK.


Now that I've confirmed it, here's a question I'd like comments on:

How risky/bad was my turn 3-bet after the turn checkraise?

Thanks much.

[Jeffage]

Ok, now that Tyler put up the results, I will offer comments. Obviously, the raise preflop is standard. My plan was to checkraise the turn...Tyler's turn 3-bet made me think he had a set of 10's or 9s possibly. There was also the chance he had AK or even AQs. I have found lately that many people seem to take "shots" at me online and overplay some hands against me possibly due to this. I am friends with Tyler in the real world of W-DC (obviously you can see we don't softplay each other at the poker table) and I could easily see him (or many others who play 5-10 and higher online) trying to move me off AK in this spot. I have to look him up heads up. I can't even get aggressive when I hit 2pair on the end bc it doesn't change much if he has a set which his heavy aggression suggests. I don't know that I like Tyler's reraise in this spot because I'm only going to call it on the turn (most likely) with a hand that either ties his or reraise with a hand that beats it badly (like a set of 10's or 9's which I would sometimes openraise with) or two pair. I don't think I would checkraise AQ in this spot...I would probably check call in this spot. I felt like putting in money on the turn with what I believed to be a better hand. His 3-bet made me doubt this however. All comments appreciated...cya at the tables (though I jump around from site to site). Looks like my holiday weekend has been extended by the DC blizzard...cya at the tables...

Jeff

[mdlm]

At which site was this hand played?

[Tyler Durden]

[mdlm]

Tyler's turn 3-bet made me think he had a set of 10's or 9s possibly. There was also the chance he had AK or even AQs.

Why is AA not a possibility?

Also, would you have played AT or ATs the same way?

[Jeffage]

AA is a possibility but my having AK and there being an ace on board lessens the likelihood of that occurring...it is more likely that he either has AK, AQ a set or is making a move at the pot. Either way, if he has a set he has me badly beat no matter which particular set he has. If I had AT or ATs I may very well play this way postflop...though not always. It is key to never always do something in poker just like I wouldn't always checkraise the turn in this spot (I may play faster initially, I may wait for the riv...it depends...I like to mix it up). It depends on the game how I play A10 or A10s preflop in this spot (raise or call). A10o is pretty marginal in this spot against one limper (unless they are pretty bad)...

Jeff

[Tyler Durden]

I wouldn't have three-bet pre-flop with ATs or ATo. As for AA, I probably would have played it the same way. I was pretty sure Jeff didn't have AA or KK b/c I had one of each and there was one of each on the board.

[mdlm]

What move eliminates the possibility of AT for Jeffage?

[mdlm]

I wouldn't have three-bet pre-flop with ATs or ATo.

I'm confused. Jeffage wasn't the one who 3-bet preflop. You were.

Does this mean that with AT in Jeffage's position you would've folded after your re-reraise?

[Tyler Durden]

I think you're confusing me now. I was the PF 3-bettor, and I wouldn't have 3-bet with ATs.

[Clarkmeister]

mdlm,

I don't know for sure, but I suspect Jefferage would not raise an EP limper with AT suited or no.

[mdlm]

I think you're confusing me now. I was the PF 3-bettor, and I wouldn't have 3-bet with ATs.

LOL. Here is my question: How come no one puts Jeffage on AT/ATs?

In a post above Clarkmeister says he doesn't think that Jeffage would've raised an EP limper with AT/ATs. Jeffage himself says that he might've played AT/ATs this way.

Did you consider the possibility that Jeffage had AT/ATs and had you beat when you re-popped him on the turn?

[Jeffage]

I am not Lee Jones...I (and many others) find his preflop selection advice very bad, so trying to uncover my analyis based on his writings may lead you to some strange conclusions. My comments were about postflop play (as it related to ATs) and not preflop play. If your standard play is to raise one limper with A10o, your preflop play may need some work. A10s usually prefers many callers..in the passive game we were in (as Tyler wrote) I would likely call with that hand and hope for a multiway pot. I may fold A10o with just one limper. Of course, I could raise with either hand if a loose player was the limper or if the game was more ram and jam I'd prob toss A10o and raise A10s....I like to vary my play, but you have to consider the action (here, one limper) and the game conditions. Clark's suggestion that I wouldn't raise one limper with A10 is (generally) correct.

Jeff

[Tyler Durden]

I didn't really consider the possibility that he had AT. I put him on AK after he just called my turn 3-bet.

[anatta]

I think that AT calls from EP after an EP limper, and I think that AT might go ahead and 4 bet (cap?) the turn, since that leaves only one combination of AA and TT to fear.

[Tyler Durden]

I've been thinking about my turn 3-bet and I think it may have been too aggressive because I was looking at a near certain chop. Jeffage could have had 99 or TT.

But I think that I would have felt like I played it too passively if I had just called the turn checkraise.