value bet debate

[stripsqueez]

i need to settle one

5/10 6 max - i get Qh9h in the BB - button open raises and i call

flop is Qd 6c 10h - i check raise and he called

turn is Kd - bet/call

river is 9d - ?

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[wheelz]

Easy bet I think..

[Victor]

i thin its a pretty easy bet. he will likely call you with any pair save a 6. lay down to a raise unless he is aggro or capable.

[Danenania]

[ QUOTE ]
i thin its a pretty easy bet. he will likely call you with any pair save a 6. lay down to a raise unless he is aggro or capable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I echo this except I would be calling a raise from unknowns and folding only if I have a read of passive. Of course I'm all used to 10/20.

[MrFeelNothin]

I feel like this is a situation where if you check you allow him to act knowing exactly where he is at. When you check that river after the flop and turn action you are signaling- I am too afraid of the straight to bet but I am going to call you. He is able to value bet his K10, K9, 99 or straight while he will simply table his one pair hands that you can beat such as A10, A6, Kx, maybe a weak AK, underpair or other random crap.

I feel like I am in favor of bet/fold as you played this hand very strongly, unless opponent is tricky I dont think he will even consider a bluff-raise, it really looks to him like you have QJ or at the worst a two-pair hand that you arent folding. (though you are).

Im not even considering check-folding, so bet-fold it is.

[___1___]

stripsqueez,

It really depends on what percentage of the time you expect this opponent to bluffraise if you bet and/or bluff if you check.

A "typical" player (I think) would only consider bluffing a very small percentage of the time, thus I think it's a fairly easy value bet against a "typical" opponent.

___1___

[Danenania]

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I feel like I am in favor of bet/fold as you played this hand very strongly, unless opponent is tricky I dont think he will even consider a bluff-raise, it really looks to him like you have QJ or at the worst a two-pair hand that you arent folding. (though you are).

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that logically an opponent would hardly ever decide to bluff raise but when they do it it's usually a desperation move. They aren't thinking about what you have or anything really except the money in the middle. They see a scary card come off and fire blindly.

[cartman]

I like (in order of preference):

1)bet-call
2)check-call
3)bet-fold

To fold this hand against an unknown strikes me as nearly criminal. Then again, I may be clueless.

Cartman

[bobbyi]

Bet!

[MrFeelNothin]

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I feel like I am in favor of bet/fold as you played this hand very strongly, unless opponent is tricky I dont think he will even consider a bluff-raise, it really looks to him like you have QJ or at the worst a two-pair hand that you arent folding. (though you are).

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that logically an opponent would hardly ever decide to bluff raise but when they do it it's usually a desperation move. They aren't thinking about what you have or anything really except the money in the middle. They see a scary card come off and fire blindly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against an unknown in 10/20 im not folding. I was attempting to convey the point of view of a typical 5/10 weak/passive player which I always assume unknowns to be at 5/10 when the posters are too lazy to provide me with reads.

If I was playing this hand as the first hand at the table and truly didnt know my opponent I would probably be bet-calling or but this is pretty rare in the PT age. Though yes I realize PT stats arent reads.

In conclusion, GIMME SOME DAMN READS.

[Alobar]

I feel so lied to. In the topic it says there is some kind of debate. I don't see one.

[mperich]

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I feel so lied to. In the topic it says there is some kind of debate. I don't see one.

[/ QUOTE ]

[clownshoes]

Bet and slap anyone who said not to

[sthief09]

opinions on the turn bet? at first glance I don't like it

[yanicehand]

can't see not betting simply because of runner runner completions. i bet the river without hesitation.

[Anders_G]

I guess the debate is whether or not to fold to a river raise, which you obviously shouldn't

[stripsqueez]

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In conclusion, GIMME SOME DAMN READS.

[/ QUOTE ]

i always think its a bit pointless to try and describe with a few words or 3 capital letters what is going on at the table - i didnt really have a read - i arrogantly assume they are all chooks in this game (although i'm noticing that the tight chook is a far more common occurence in this game)

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[stripsqueez]

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I feel so lied to. In the topic it says there is some kind of debate. I don't see one.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is how i might of felt too - you will note that i indicated immediately that i was having a debate and was wishing the expert views of those posting here to settle it - i think its an auto bet

the circumstances might serve to excuse me wasting your time - i was giving a lesson (i lost $300 over 400 odd hands) - i only played 3 tables of 5/10 because 4 becomes cumbersome to talk explain and play - after 30 minutes or so my mouth and play were a constant and instant stream - then this hand came up and the cursor paused as i contemplated what i should do on the river

"check" - said the pupil - i was still looking and then shortly after he said this i bet

some debate followed and i expressed the view that this was an auto value bet despite the fact that i had thought about it - he disagreed and said it clearly wasnt auto if i had to think - i explained that its common for auto value bets to actually take a little time because invariably a voice appears and says "holy crap thats a bad card - maybe i should be a sook and check" - fortunately i had previously been heard to say if it doesnt hurt when you value bet your not doing it right but he still didnt buy it

so i thought i would waste some of your time rather than haggle...

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[stripsqueez]

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opinions on the turn bet? at first glance I don't like it

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah its not great if i get raised but they are often too passive to raise with hands they should in this game and i think i'm in front - i like bet

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[aK13]

I think not betting here is leaving money on the table.

[Poldi]

I also think this is a pretty easy value bet and without a reliable read I call a raise.

[MAxx]

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i thin its a pretty easy bet. he will likely call you with any pair save a 6. lay down to a raise unless he is aggro or capable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I echo this except I would be calling a raise from unknowns and folding only if I have a read of passive. Of course I'm all used to 10/20.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats what I think too

[Alobar]

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- he disagreed and said it clearly wasnt auto if i had to think - i explained that its common for auto value bets to actually take a little time because invariably a voice appears and says "holy crap thats a bad card - maybe i should be a sook and check" - fortunately i had previously been heard to say if it doesnt hurt when you value bet your not doing it right but he still didnt buy it

[/ QUOTE ]

that sums it all up perfectly. Tell your pupil to quit arguing with the master! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

btw, I love all your aussie slang. "sook" is a new one, is that like a chook only better?

[dave44]

There are straight draws galore on this board- I'd say a bet is necessary. No postflop read either so you can't be checking here against an unknown everytime.

[PokerBob]

even i bet this

[PokerBob]

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opinions on the turn bet? at first glance I don't like it

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmmmmmm.......

[btspider]

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opinions on the turn bet? at first glance I don't like it

[/ QUOTE ]

isn't this a case where you can bet-call the turn and check-fold unimproved if he bets the river... this costs the same as when you check-call the turn and kind of have to check-call the river as well since you gave up your initiative. or would you check-call the turn and check-fold the river?

[sthief09]

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I think not betting here is leaving money on the table.

[/ QUOTE ]


why's that

[sthief09]

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opinions on the turn bet? at first glance I don't like it

[/ QUOTE ]

isn't this a case where you can bet-call the turn and check-fold unimproved if he bets the river... this costs the same as when you check-call the turn and kind of have to check-call the river as well since you gave up your initiative. or would you check-call the turn and check-fold the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe you're right. I don't love my hand at that point. I think I can get more value from people bluffing than I can from them calling with a worse hand. maybe the typical 5/10 player is looser and more passive but I do think against a lot of players this is true. I guess you could bet to get Ax to fold, but a lot of players will even bet that if checked to.

[Mig]

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I guess you could bet to get Ax to fold, but a lot of players will even bet that if checked to.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the same here. I think a lot of hands will bet if checked to. The board is now very scary and you look scary if you check. Even the most passive player might take a stab at the pot if checked to. I think that giving the fact he has position on us I would probably check often here. Inducing a bluff or only paying 1 more if beaten. If it was initially raised by CO or Button I would bet 100% here... Maybe I give too much credit to a UTG pfr ?

[PokerBob]

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[ QUOTE ]
opinions on the turn bet? at first glance I don't like it

[/ QUOTE ]

isn't this a case where you can bet-call the turn and check-fold unimproved if he bets the river... this costs the same as when you check-call the turn and kind of have to check-call the river as well since you gave up your initiative. or would you check-call the turn and check-fold the river?

[/ QUOTE ]


Every time I check in this situation, I end up giving JTo a free card, which looks a lot like what villain could have given the action, IMHO. Meh.

[Alobar]

I dont like a turn check

[PokerBob]

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I dont like a turn check

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm torn, as a raise would make me puke.

[sinfulslick18]

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i thin its a pretty easy bet. he will likely call you with any pair save a 6. lay down to a raise unless he is aggro or capable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I echo this except I would be calling a raise from unknowns and folding only if I have a read of passive. Of course I'm all used to 10/20.

[/ QUOTE ]

[sthief09]

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I dont like a turn check

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm torn, as a raise would make me puke.

[/ QUOTE ]



btspider mentioned a good way of dealing with a raise

[Alobar]

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I dont like a turn check

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm torn, as a raise would make me puke.

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btspider mentioned a good way of dealing with a raise

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unless hes aggresive, I just fold to the raise. 7-1 on a broadway board with 2nd pair and the idiot end of a gutshot.

Do we have to call?

[sthief09]

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I dont like a turn check

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm torn, as a raise would make me puke.

[/ QUOTE ]



btspider mentioned a good way of dealing with a raise

[/ QUOTE ]

unless hes aggresive, I just fold to the raise. 7-1 on a broadway board with 2nd pair and the idiot end of a gutshot.

Do we have to call?

[/ QUOTE ]


imo this is a pretty damn good reason to check the turn. 2 pair might be good, trips might be good, straight might be good

[PokerBob]

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I dont like a turn check

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm torn, as a raise would make me puke.

[/ QUOTE ]



btspider mentioned a good way of dealing with a raise

[/ QUOTE ]

unless hes aggresive, I just fold to the raise. 7-1 on a broadway board with 2nd pair and the idiot end of a gutshot.

Do we have to call?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's close, as IMO any Q or J is good, and a 9 may be as well. Thus, I puke if raised.

[Alobar]

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I dont like a turn check

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm torn, as a raise would make me puke.

[/ QUOTE ]



btspider mentioned a good way of dealing with a raise

[/ QUOTE ]

unless hes aggresive, I just fold to the raise. 7-1 on a broadway board with 2nd pair and the idiot end of a gutshot.

Do we have to call?

[/ QUOTE ]


imo this is a pretty damn good reason to check the turn. 2 pair might be good, trips might be good, straight might be good

[/ QUOTE ]

good point. I just hate the thought of giving a free card here tho, and being forced to check/call 2 streets if he bets. So I guess maybe btspider does have the best line.

[btspider]

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I dont like a turn check

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm torn, as a raise would make me puke.

[/ QUOTE ]



btspider mentioned a good way of dealing with a raise

[/ QUOTE ]

unless hes aggresive, I just fold to the raise. 7-1 on a broadway board with 2nd pair and the idiot end of a gutshot.

Do we have to call?

[/ QUOTE ]


imo this is a pretty damn good reason to check the turn. 2 pair might be good, trips might be good, straight might be good

[/ QUOTE ]

good point. I just hate the thought of giving a free card here tho, and being forced to check/call 2 streets if he bets. So I guess maybe btspider does have the best line.

[/ QUOTE ]

we might still have the best hand and he'll give up his semi-bluff on the river.

[CIncyHR]

I also agree.

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
btw, I love all your aussie slang. "sook" is a new one, is that like a chook only better?

[/ QUOTE ]

sook is usually inter-changeable with blouse, or nancy - ie lacking courage and resolve - a sook isnt a chook although most chooks are sooks

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
we might still have the best hand and he'll give up his semi-bluff on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

when was the last time that happened ?

i think i would of simply folded to the turn raise - i see a strong argument for checking the turn but i would virtually always check/call the river particularly this river if i did check the turn

stripsqueez - chickenhawk