River Question for the enlightened

[IrishHand]

Paradise 3-6
My first hand. I sit down in late position, post my $3 and get a monster in the pocket - 8/forums/images/icons/club.gif3/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif
The 3 players to the left of the BB call, I check, the button calls and the SB folds. A solid 6 players see the flop:
K/forums/images/icons/club.gif3/forums/images/icons/heart.gif3/forums/images/icons/spade.gif
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, everyone calls except the BB, who folds. 5 players see the turn:
7/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 calls, I raise, button folds, UTG calls the 2 bets, UTG+1 calls my raise and UTG+2 folds. 3 players see the river:
7/forums/images/icons/spade.gif
Surprisingly - at least to me - UTG opens with a bet. UTG+1 calls. I raise, UTG re-raises, UTG+1 folds, and I call.

UTG shows A/forums/images/icons/heart.gif7/forums/images/icons/heart.gif for the 7s full of 3s and a the pot.
How would a bright player have handled that hand in general, and how should the river been handled in particular? Thanks.

[Ed Miller]

I would have raised the flop. I would have just called UTG's river bet... it sure looks like he's got a seven.

[calvin]

Hello,

I would have raised the flop and lead the turn if you are going to play this hand.

As you saw, your hand isn't exactly unbeatable, and the last thing you want is someone staying in with a suited ace because they have a few outs...that hit on the turn and river.

Raise it if you are going to play, otherwise fold. If the player is somewhat typical, they may be simply betting a king on the river, I probably would have called, unless the UTG player was especially tricky too.

The UTG player had a lot of catching up to do...and he did it. Perhaps he would have called your raise on the flop and then your bet or raise on the turn when he hit his 7, but you should, at least, give him the chance, and incentive, to fold.

Calvin

[Stu Pidasso]

This is not a good hand to slow play, raise the flop

Stu

[Dynasty]

This is not a good hand to slow play

Why not?

I raise the flop most of the time in these hands because I also raise with a King and flush/straight draws (if they exist).

[Stu Pidasso]

Because cheap/free cards can hurt you by either making someone a better hand, or giving them a draw to a better hand.

Stu

[Ed Miller]

Because cheap/free cards can hurt you by either making someone a better hand, or giving them a draw to a better hand.

I don't think that's the main reason why a slowplay is incorrect here. I think it's incorrect because I think in general that you will make more money with this hand by raising the flop. The fact is that few players will like this flop (because there are no draws), but many will be willing to put in a bet on the flop anyway to see if a turn card will give them a draw or pair. These same players are almost sure not to call a turn bet, let alone a raise, when they don't improve on fourth street.

[Dynasty]

On a drawless flop like this, you've got your opponents drawing extremely slim. There are very few cards which can make somebody a better hand here.

[2005]

I agree with Dynasty on this one. I raise, not because I don't want to give a free card, but because that's how I would play a King here, and hopefully UTG will call 2 cold to see the turn with A7. I'm ok with that. You get unlucky sometimes, not much you can do about it.

As far as the river play is concerned. Once UTG calls two cold on the turn and then leads out on the river, you have to be prepared to see his 7. Be happy he was in there that far.

Gavin

[Yerma]

It's a lack of experience that has brought you to suggest that slowplaying is ok. I've said this several times: you need some more time at the tables!

Look, you catch the 3 players who have already invested in the pot for a raise. It's true you will probably knock out the other two who have not yet invested, but the 3 who have already invested may choose not to invest further on the turn. How do you get their price other than to raise the flop?

I suggestion that there are other benefits to raising the flop when your kicker is weak. Can you see how?

[bernie]

for this reason, along with other reasons...

waiting for the turn is a valid option...

however, im involved in another thread that's basically the same deal.

i dont understand why anyone would want to fold someone who may catch a 2nd best hand anyway....

more chips can be made on the turn...especially if its an earlier bettor that traps in some players(callers) before you raise....

oh well....

some have adamant tunnel vision

b

[Clarkmeister]

So you post a hand asking about the river and you get a lesson on how to play the flop. Welcome to the forum bud. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

Actually, thats why its important to post hands. People will find problems that we hadn't even considered to be problems.

I concur with those who say raise the flop. The thing is that if it was a bet and no callers to you, I'd call. But with a bet and a caller, you start to leave bets on the table. Most players who call on the flop here are folding on the turn, so you may as well charge them double for the opportunity. Finally, as others said, you should also be raising here with a king (but maybe not AK) so you present your opponents with a well rounded unreadable strategy. Your flop raise won't make them think "3" either, so whereas a turn raise might. So you'll get called down more often as well.

On the river, you really can't raise. Even the brain dead put you on a 3 with that action. His bet means "I got a 7", or "I still have a 3". You are never ahead here, only tied or losing. Raising is a bad idea.

[Yerma]

Next instance, offer me credit p.h.

I still put you on ph, whatever you say.

[Clarkmeister]

Yerma, do you mind me asking what the heck you are talking about?

[34TheTruth34]

They are both right. Dynasty is right that this is a good board to slowplay a big hand like this. There are no draws present and people love to play garbage kings like KT and K7s. And like you figured out, some clowns will call with nothing but an ace overcard and backdoor flush draw. If you were in the BB, not knowing how all the opponents behind you feel about the hand, I would definitely just check and call.
Having said that, I do have to agree with Clarkmeister that once they all call, you have to pop it even if you think everyone behind you will fold for the double bet. The reason is that this is the type of board where players will only take one card off. Make them pay two bets to do it. Picture that Ah7h. If he doesn't hit an ace, seven or heart, he's folding, not even calling one bet on the turn and definitely not a raise. Gotta raise the flop. Also, you'd certainly raise the flop with KQ here, so might as well raise when you actually have the trips too to keep aware opponents guessing.