40-80 River Play

[Jeffage]

40-80 on Paradise. I have A /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif in the big blind. Game is 7-handed. I have no reads. Folded to button who raises, SB calls, I reraise and both call. 3 to the flop of 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/club.gif. SB checks, I bet and only the button calls. Turn is an offsuit 9. I bet, button calls. River is an offsuit 10. What's your line? Check-call, check-fold or bet-fold?

Jeff

[flawless_victory]

any read on the button? basically, if the button is a horrible retard, id check/call, if decent player, id check/fold. i know it hurts.

[lil feller]

[ QUOTE ]
any read on the button? basically, if the button is a horrible retard, id check/call, if decent player, id check/fold. i know it hurts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this backwards? Against a horrible player check/fold, he won't bet if he can't beat nopair. Against a good/decent player, who's capable of know that you have AK and might muck it, check/call. Against an unknown, check/call, so he isn't an unknown anymore.

lf

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
any read on the button? basically, if the button is a horrible retard, id check/call, if decent player, id check/fold. i know it hurts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this backwards? Against a horrible player check/fold, he won't bet if he can't beat nopair. Against a good/decent player, who's capable of know that you have AK and might muck it, check/call. Against an unknown, check/call, so he isn't an unknown anymore.

lf

[/ QUOTE ]sane ppl "know" you are check/calling here AND are almost gauranteed to have some kind of showdown value. bad player may have something ridiculous that cant win by checking AND will think he can represent a straight and you will fold.

[Xhiggy]

I don't think it would be right to distinguish the check-call from the check-fold based on the "goodness" of the player. Instead, it should be based on the aggressiveness of the player, and his tendency to bluff. Against a weaker less aggressive opponent, I'd probably check-fold most of the time. I'd probably base it on how I thought the player viewed me as well. half the time they'll check-behind with their low pair anyhow.
Against a stronger, more tricky opponent, I'd probably be more inclined to check-call, although you must mix up how your play this (I don't know the right ratio and would just do it on feel and hope that it's somewhere close) : ).

[Mikey]

Think about the hands you can beat.

KQ.
AQ.
45.

[geormiet]

I like bet-folding. If he has a worse ace, you gain a bet. If he has a weakish showdown hand, it will cost you the same as check calling.

The only problem here is if he has a busted draw and will bluff it - but like someone mentioned, most players are good enough to not fall for that.

[ike]

This is a common scenario. It can't be simultaneously the case that your observant opponents know you're checkcalling and that you fold in this spot.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a common scenario. It can't be simultaneously the case that your observant opponents know you're checkcalling and that you fold in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]im assuming you dont have a history with said opponent, but he knows you are prob solid 40 internet player who likely doesnt fold hands on riv for one bet heads up. online ppl really dont fold AK here. FWIW, i dont think calling is terrible, im just saying if hes ok, he prob doesnt have 45 or something retarded that cannot win a showdown... when he has AQ, he will just check it. i also do not like to bet here bc he will give a free showdown when he has a pair and he wouldve certainly called had you bet.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a common scenario. It can't be simultaneously the case that your observant opponents know you're checkcalling and that you fold in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]im assuming you dont have a history with said opponent, but he knows you are prob solid 40 internet player who likely doesnt fold hands on riv for one bet heads up. online ppl really dont fold AK here. FWIW, i dont think calling is terrible, im just saying if hes ok, he prob doesnt have 45 or something retarded that cannot win a showdown... when he has AQ, he will just check it. i also do not like to bet here bc he will give a free showdown when he has a pair and he wouldve certainly called had you bet.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a common scenario. It can't be simultaneously the case that your observant opponents know you're checkcalling and that you fold in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]im assuming you dont have a history with said opponent, but he knows you are prob solid 40 internet player who likely doesnt fold hands on riv for one bet heads up. online ppl really dont fold AK here. FWIW, i dont think calling is terrible, im just saying if hes ok, he prob doesnt have 45 or something retarded that cannot win a showdown... when he has AQ, he will just check it. i also do not like to bet here bc he will give a free showdown when he has a pair and he wouldve certainly called had you bet.

[Lawrence Ng]

Hi Jeffage,

I'm bluffing that river 90% of the time against almost any opponent who raised preflop. I'm gonna put pressure on them to fold a pair. If this works even more than half the time, I'm making a ton of money.

Lawrence

[Jeffage]

Do you mean bluff-raising a bet or bluffing if checked to or both? Just curious...

Jeff

[hockey1]

[ QUOTE ]
If this works even more than half the time, I'm making a ton of money.


[/ QUOTE ]

Against most opponents, no way this works anywhere close to half the time. If he called the turn he's calling the river brick unless he was on a draw and missed, in which case betting serves no purpose 'cause he ain't calling.

[sfer]

They're never folding a pair but will sometimes call with worse aces, so I don't think it's a bluff. I'd do the same.

[Paluka]

I think this is close. You will often get a call from a worse ace, but you will also pick off some bluffs if you check and call. Also, some opponents will check behind with a pair on the river. The only really big error here would be checking and folding.

[Jeffage]

This one is irritating me, but oh well. I checked the river, he bet and I called. He had QJo and took it down. When he bet the end, I wanted to fold because I just can't see any hand he has that I beat beat besides AQ or KQ. But at 8.5-1, I figured the odds I was getting were decent. More comments welcome.

Jeff