JTs against a 3-bet

[JTG51]

I could have won the Tommy Angelo award for seat selection yesterday. There were 4 super tighties in the game, all of them directly to my left. That left the 5 loosey goosey players to my right.

I'm 2 off the button and open raise with J /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif T /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif after all the geese forget to limp. The CO, a very tight, but also somewhat weak player 3 bets. Even with my steal raise possibility, I think this means a pair from 99 or higher, or a big A. Everyone else folds and I call. We're heads up.

Flop: T /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/club.gif

I check and call.

Turn: [T /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/club.gif ] 7 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

I picked up a flush draw with my top pair. I check he bets, I check raise.

I know that he'll fold a big A to a check raise almost every time (assuming no flush draw). He's almost sure to just call me with a big pair, and would fold 99. He'll most likely just call a river bet with an overpair without any improvement. If I call, I'm not sure if he'd bet the river with an umimproved A high.

Given that, is this an easy check raise? Who plays the flop more aggressively?

[calvin]

Hello,

I would have probably check raised the flop - but there is nothing wrong with a check call after the three bet.

After picking up the flush draw, like you, I would have also checkraised the turn.

As you say the CO is very tight, I would tend to respect his three bet and hope his AK/AQ or 99 missed this flop.

Given your read of the player, and the way he will play according to his hand, I would say "well played."

If you are going to open raise with this hand, and you happen to get an (awesome) flop and turn like this, I think you need to be very aggressive or you should simply fold preflop.

Calvin

[Mike Gallo]

I picked up a flush draw with my top pair. I check he bets, I check raise.

I like this play. 1) You can win the pot there if your opponent has a strong Ace. 2) You might see the river for free in that spot.

If you consider your opponent a knowledgable opponent then the check raise on the turn makes a lot of sence. Most players realize that the flop is the "phony" betting round.

When you check raise the turn, you have shown your opponent your real hand. If you check raise the flop it appears you might have check raised to protect a marginal hand.

Just curious, did this hand happen at a 5-10 kill game or a 10-20 game? If 10-20 I guess Halftime Howie wasnt in your game.

I plan on visiting Foxwoods in the next few weeks, and most definately 4-4-3 for the $200 no limit event.

[Stu Pidasso]

Its good to check-raise semi-bluff anytime it will work often enough to be profitable. When it doesn't work, you still gain down the road when people call and you have the goods.

Stu

[Dynasty]

Have you seen this opponent bet unimproved overcards on both the flop and turn? Or fold overpairs heads-up?

If not, then what's the point of the check-raise?

[JTG51]

Have you seen this opponent bet unimproved overcards on both the flop and turn? Or fold overpairs heads-up?

Yes and not really. I know he would bet his unimproved overcards. He played very aggressively until he met some resistance, then turned very weak without a big hand. I saw him fold top set on the river, face up, when a third flush card fell and his opponent bet into him.

If not, then what's the point of the check-raise?

That's why I asked the question. I think there's a fine line here, I'm not exactly sure where the line is though. Obviously if he won't bet an unimproved AK or AQ on the flop and turn, my check raise is very foolish. Is the fact that he will enough to make a check raise the right play?

[JTG51]

If you are going to open raise with this hand, and you happen to get an (awesome) flop and turn like this, I think you need to be very aggressive or you should simply fold preflop.

I would have played an awesome flop a lot more aggressively. I didn't really think this was an awesome flop though. I also don't think there's anything wrong with playing cautiously when you are 3 bet and flop a pretty good hand.

I think it would be a huge mistake for me to fold before the flop. With the players behind me and in the blinds, I'd probably steal the blinds 75% of the time.

[JTG51]

Just curious, did this hand happen at a 5-10 kill game or a 10-20 game? If 10-20 I guess Halftime Howie wasnt in your game.

It was 10-20. I know a couple of Howie's there, but I'm not sure if any of them go by Halftime Howie. Does he only play 5-10?

I plan on visiting Foxwoods in the next few weeks, and most definately 4-4-3 for the $200 no limit event.

If you like no limit tournaments, you should try to include a Tuesday night in one of your visits. There's a very well run NL tourney every week (not during the NE Poker Classic of course). It's $35 to buy in with unlimited rebuys for the first hour. There's usually 100-120 players. First place paid $3600 last week.

[Dynasty]

If you've seen this opponent bet unimproved overcards as late as the turn, then your check-raise is worth considering. If he isn't going to fold a better hand, then I like check-raising less. And with this ragged board, it's hard to get even the weakest of players to fold QQ or some other pair that beats Tens. Why would he seriously think QQ isn't good on a T,7,5,2 board? Remember, semi-bluffing is a valuable tool when there is some chance your opponent will fold a better hand.

If you are behind, the check-raise isn't costing you much. You've got as many as 14 outs (3 Jacks, 2 Tens, 9 diamonds) to improve. That's slightly better than a 30% chance of improvement.

So, in total, the check-raise seems okay but it's certainly not a great play. It's probably slightly -EV but so small that you don't need to worry about it. In fact, if this is an opponent you play against regularly, the play is worthwhile just to prevent him from getting a line on your play.

Another line of play to consider is to just call and bet out on the river if an Ace or King comes representing AK. That may get this type of opponent (mucking a set face up) to fold a better hand. What you do if you actually improve depends on your read.

[JTG51]

So, in total, the check-raise seems okay but it's certainly not a great play.

I came to a similar conclusion at the table after the hand was over. I feel like I've made a lot of improvements lately, and am working on fine tuning some of these marginal situations.

Thanks for the great response.

[Dynasty]

If you are going to open raise with this hand, and you happen to get an (awesome) flop and turn like this, I think you need to be very aggressive or you should simply fold preflop.

First, you should always open-raise with JTs two positions off the button. Folding shouldn't be considered.

You don't need to be very aggressive with this hand against a pre-flop 3-bettor. You may have run into a bigger hand and should adjust your play accordingly.

[Ed Miller]

If you are going to open raise with this hand, and you happen to get an (awesome) flop and turn like this, I think you need to be very aggressive or you should simply fold preflop.

I think many people fail to realize that aggression loses much of the value headsup that it has multiway. Primarily, you should be aggressive headsup for two reasons:

1) To get your opponent to put in an extra bet while you have the best hand
2) To get your opponent to fold a very marginal hand that is better than yours (eg. an unimproved big Ace)

In this hand, JTG has real reason to be worried about being behind on the turn. Fortunately he probably has 14 outs to improve to the best hand if he is behind. The problem is, very rarely will you find an opponent who will fold an overpair headsup. The turn raise is not too bad because JTG has so many outs if behind... but it would have been much better had JTG had position in this hand... instead of having to checkraise. Then JTG could then consider checking behind on the river unimproved if called.

[Robk]

I think that the checkraise when you pick up a flush draw play is overused. It's just so
transparent because (almost) no one I know balances it out by checkraising their made hands
on the turn like they should. Whenever someone checkraises me on the turn and a second
flush card showed up I 3-bet and then make them fold the best hand when their flush card
misses. I'm not saying you don't, but I find that this play works much better if the last time
I checkraised someone on the turn I had a good hand and it's definitely something
to keep in mind when debating whether to try the play.

[JTG51]

It's just so transparent because (almost) no one I know balances it out by checkraising their made hands on the turn like they should.

I'd play TT the same way I played this hand many times.

[Robk]

Like I said in my original post I'm not saying you don't balance out appropriately since I obviously
have never played with you, I'm just saying it's something I see a lot. It's not a matter of would
you play TT the same way it's more a matter of would you play your JTs in a more straightforward
way most of the time.

[JTG51]

Like I said in my original post I'm not saying you don't balance out appropriately since I obviously have never played with you, I'm just saying it's something I see a lot.

I agree with you 100%. Making a 'tricky' play isn't tricky if you always make the same play.

I'd like to think I balance my tricky plays with straight forward plays. Actually, the more I play, the more straight forward I get.

[JTG51]

My opponent mucked AK face up to my turn check raise.

[mdlm]

He's almost sure to just call me with a big pair

This seems to be a significant leak in your opponent's game. If he would re-raise your check-raise with an overpair then I think your check-raise would be bad.

If this is in fact the way your opponent plays then you should have played the hand in exactly the same way if the flop was 952.

[Barry]

On Wed nights there is a no limit hold'em tournament at Mohegan Sun.

[34TheTruth34]

First, you should always open-raise with JTs two positions off the button. Folding shouldn't be considered.

I don't agree. Does everyone make this play? How about JTo? Personally, I feel like these hands should be folded more often than not.

In the case of JTGs hand, if all the fish have folded and all the tight players are behind you and in the blinds, I wouldn't blame you for popping it with 84o.

What a great position to be in at the table. Hope you had a good session..

[Ed Miller]

I think folding JTs in this spot is giving up too much.

[JTG51]

What a great position to be in at the table. Hope you had a good session.

Thanks. It was a great session, actually one of my most enjoyable ever.

I was stuck for about 10 hours and 58 minutes of the 11 hours I played. I finally climbed back to within about $150 of where I started the day and decided I was playing my last hand UTG. I flopped a set of 8's, won a pretty good sized pot and left a $17 winner for the day.

I wish I could leave the card room feeling so good every time I play.