I dont like how I played this hand

[Alobar]

party 10/20 I get black AA in the BB

Decently ok UTG raises. Loose fishy, who plays a bit aggresive sometimes, but generally spends to much time calling cold calls on the button. I 3 bet, UTG caps, Fishy calls

Flop: 12.5sb T /images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/heart.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I check, UTG bets, Fishy calls, I call

Turn: 8ishBB: 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I check, UTG bets, fishy folds, I raise, UTG calls

River: 12ishBB total blank

I bet, he calls


I really HATE the line I took. I think I won the absolute minimum possible.

[Victor]

i think you played it fine. its really hard not to make money in these situations.

you can lead the flop and 3bet, or lead the flop and checkraise the turn, or lead the flop and lead the turn, or checraise the flop.

i would proly checkraise the flop and if he 3bets then checkraise the turn again.

[JrJordan]

I think there's a better line too. I'm just trying to decide which I like better.

Against a pseudo-aggro player like this, I think the best line may be a flop c/r. The goal here would be to maximize our value early on if he has a overcard hand like AK, or possibly have him 3-bet a strong overpair QQ/KK hand. If he 3-bets, then you're all set for a smooth call, turn c/r combo (and 1 step away from the trifecta might I add).

Against more aggro opponents who'd be more likely to cap the flop with their overpair, I lead the flop with the hopes that he'll raise and cap my followup 3-bet. Then you can check the turn to him, which will allow him to bet his KK/QQ and then of course our favorite turn c/r.

[baronzeus]

If he is "definitely ok" then why didn't you lead into him on the flop and get him to raise so you can c/r any turn?

[Surfbullet]

I'd like your line better if you were trying to bet-3bet the turn, because then you are making sure overcards don't check through the turn, and you are letting any and all overpairs raise your fishy turn bet.

My initial reaction is to bet-3bet the flop and take it from there...if he caps we get a c/r in on the turn, if he calls we'll bet the turn and his better overpairs will likely raise. If we are feeling particularly sneaky(or we know he wont raise overcards on the flop) we can go for a turn c/r after a flop 3bet.

Surf

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like your line better if you were trying to bet-3bet the turn, because then you are making sure overcards don't check through the turn, and you are letting any and all overpairs raise your fishy turn bet.

My initial reaction is to bet-3bet the flop and take it from there...if he caps we get a c/r in on the turn, if he calls we'll bet the turn and his better overpairs will likely raise. If we are feeling particularly sneaky(or we know he wont raise overcards on the flop) we can go for a turn c/r after a flop 3bet.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

Just calling his raise on the flop and raising any turn will get you +0.5BB vs 3betting and leading.

[sublime]

i am with Victor, in that it doesn't matter much what way you do play it. personally, i prefer to c/r the flop as it increases the likelihood of me getting a cap in.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd like your line better if you were trying to bet-3bet the turn, because then you are making sure overcards don't check through the turn, and you are letting any and all overpairs raise your fishy turn bet.

My initial reaction is to bet-3bet the flop and take it from there...if he caps we get a c/r in on the turn, if he calls we'll bet the turn and his better overpairs will likely raise. If we are feeling particularly sneaky(or we know he wont raise overcards on the flop) we can go for a turn c/r after a flop 3bet.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

Just calling his raise on the flop and raising any turn will get you +0.5BB vs 3betting and leading.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't just make statements like this without analyzing our opponent's hand range.

Sure, If we know he has TT and he will raise us on the flop and bet the turn so we can c/r, then yes that is the best line.

However, if he's got AK he may raise the flop and take a free river card...now we've missed out on 2.5SBs.

If he's got QQ then bet-3bet may get him to cap US and then we can still c/r the turn...or he may smoothcall the 3bet to raise the turn.

The point is (Victor made it well) that as long as you are putting bets and raises in, it's real hard to not make money in these situations. Usually a failure to do so is because the other player got all weak-tight.

Surf

[JrJordan]

[ QUOTE ]
i am with Victor, in that it doesn't matter much what way you do play it. personally, i prefer to c/r the flop as it increases the likelihood of me getting a cap in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't you be better off at this point going after another c/r on the turn? I can't see AK 3-betting here for a free river card, so it seems like you'd make an extra .5BB by just calling the flop 3-bet.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i am with Victor, in that it doesn't matter much what way you do play it. personally, i prefer to c/r the flop as it increases the likelihood of me getting a cap in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't you be better off at this point going after another c/r on the turn? I can't see AK 3-betting here for a free river card, so it seems like you'd make an extra .5BB by just calling the flop 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
i am with Victor, in that it doesn't matter much what way you do play it. personally, i prefer to c/r the flop as it increases the likelihood of me getting a cap in.

[/ QUOTE ]

i would proly checkraise the turn if 3bet on the flop. the advantage to this line is you can trap the other player twice.

[Mig]

Do you think that vilain would raise a flop bet and lead a turn with AK on such a raggy board ? If so the best line to take would have been
bet the flop - fish call - vilain raise - you call - fish call
check turn - fish check - vilain bet - you raise - fish fold - vilain call
bet - call
You gain 1 BB with that line ?
The only problem with that line is that if he is not that aggro with AK-AQ, he will often take the free card on the turn..
But if you check-call the turn, he will surely bet the turn again putting you on a weaker Ace or something and you are almost sure to have a pot like you got. By betting the flop I think you increase the odds he will check behind on the turn putting you on a pocket pair...

[Mig]

IF vilain 3 bet, you have to cap... I think AK with often 3 bet here to get a free turn card, and hands like JJ might check behind on the turn if he puts you on overpairs..

[JrJordan]

[ QUOTE ]
IF vilain 3 bet, you have to cap... I think AK with often 3 bet here to get a free turn card, and hands like JJ might check behind on the turn if he puts you on overpairs..

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of this depends on whether the fish stays to see the turn as well, but hypothetically if Villain 3-bets this flop, it's not for a free card since the fish has position on him. Likewise, if he does have AK then he's probably betting the turn again for value since he has a vulnerable hand that he probably believes is ahead right now.

Also, a solid player at 10/20 is not checking through this turn with JJ and giving us a free chance to hit our "overs".

[sam h]

IMO, checkraising the flop is definitely best. You have the best chance of trapping the fish for the most bets and you make the most off of AK, which may only call a flop bet.

If the CR is just called, I bet the turn.

If UTG 3-bets and fish calls, I checkraise most turn cards.

If UTG 3-bets and fish folds, I checkraise if he is not that aggro and bet/3bet if I think he will raise there with lesser overpairs.

[Mig]

There is no way vilain bet the turn with overs here considering that We raised PFR OOP, unless we are considered to be a donk raiser, and considering we check raised the flop, he will either put us on a bigger pair or AT here. I mean by checkraising the flop I think you have 80+% chance vilain check behind with overs and he will check behind with JJ/QQ 40%+% of the time here. Unless he is very aggro or very stupid or that our image sucks.
If our image is the one of a solid player a 3 bet preflop OOP + checkraise on the flop will scare almost all overcards holder (they will check behind on the turn) and will most likely scare some of the JJ/QQ holder... IMO