Another Jim Brier hand

[MaxPower]

This was in the Wynn 40/80 game a few weeks ago. I think the game was 7 handed at the time.

Jim Brier was directly to my left. I didn't know that he was Jim Brier at the time, but I had been playing with him for a while and saw that he was a very good tight/aggressive player. I assume he had the same judgement of me - I hadn't played many hands. I also realized that he was probably a pro because he was talking to another player named "Rolla" or "Rollo" about his plans for Tunica and was saying that Ciaffone was going to stay with him during the WSOP main event.

Anyway, I raise UTG with K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Jim 3-bets, everyone folds and I call.

The flop was: 2 2 2

I check, Jim bets, I call.

The turn was a blank, I checked, Jim checked.

The river was another blank, I checked, Jim checked.

I won't give the results yet. I probably should have folded the flop, but I haven't written any books. I don't understand the way Jim played this hand.

[sfer]

Booor-ing.

[mike l.]

brier has AK or AQ and AK is a clear cut value bet on that river. not betting the turn is weak but maybe not horrible, it's closer than it may appear. yoru call on the flop is very horrible.

[brick]

he was asked to post this by astroglide.

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
he was asked to post this by astroglide.

[/ QUOTE ]

sfer is just giving me a hard time. Its very funny.

[brick]

I was kidding, too. Another case of internet sarcasm gone bad! /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[oreogod]

Whats with his turn check? You would think he'd at least bet this river.

[flawless_victory]

???he didnt have AK? if he got funky PF with something dumb, i think he 100% should bet the turn. flop calls mean nothing.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
Whats with his turn check?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm guessing he had AK and figured he would get checkraised very often by a pocket pair and that he doesn't really need to protect his hand because if he is ahead, Max probably only has three outs (plus some chop outs).

[flub]

He saw 2 cards for 1 SB so horrible might be a little strong.

-f

[mike l.]

it's horrible. he's getting barely the right odds to call if both his K and Q are good every time (and yes im including the fourth 2 as an out). when you count in the times he's drawing for a chop and drawing dead, it's an awful call.

[Victor]

i would be shocked if brier has anything other than a-high here. the reason is that if he was trying to resteal with some garbage (suited connector) he should def bet the turn as a bluff. also, if he has some mid or low pp he should def bet the turn for value.

ak or aq are the only hands i would play the same as him. protecting from a turn checkraise from a solid hand or as a bluff and inducing a bluff on the riv from kq, kj etc.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
i would be shocked if brier has anything other than a-high here. the reason is that if he was trying to resteal with some garbage (suited connector) he should def bet the turn as a bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's probably not trying to steal or resteal 3-betting from UTG+1. Just a thought.

Agreed with your other points though.

[Victor]

hi nolanfan. i agree it would not seem that way but i had a bit of headstart. granted i still dont know the results.
other brier thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2851768&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&vc=1)

[Lestat]

If I'm going past the flop with this hand, I'm going strong all the way. Otherwise, just check and fold.

But having played it the way you did, why didn't you bet the river? Granted a pro probably isn't folding AK (or he wouldn't have checked the turn), but why not give him the chance to make a mistake? He probably folds KQs, or maybe even ATs.

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
The turn was a blank, I checked, Jim checked.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aye, this is Jim Brier alright.

Lawrence

[skp]

If Jim has AK or AQ, I see nothing wrong with his turn check provided that he is willing to value bet the river if Max chceks again. In other words, I think mike l. hit the nail on the head with respect to Jim's play if he in fact had AK or AQ. Of course, if he had something like 98s and was throwing a curveball, he should have bet the turn.

I don't agree with Mike however as to Max's flop checkcall. The flop is 222 and Max is getting 8:1. It's a 7 handed game meaning that Brier could well have many hands other than those that leave Max drawing dead or chopping. Plus, Max's image would take a pounding if he folded on a 222 flop. That's asking guys to push you around which is exactly what you don't want particularly in a 7 handed game.

[MaxPower]

So far no one has put him on the correct hand. He had a hand which none of you would play this way.

My intent is not to embarass Jim Brier since I'm sure he is a winning player, but I'm not sure what he was thinking here.

Hint: MHIG

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
So far no one has put him on the correct hand. He had a hand which none of you would play this way.

My intent is not to embarass Jim Brier since I'm sure he is a winning player, but I'm not sure what he was thinking here.

Hint: MHIG

[/ QUOTE ]


He had pocket 2s.



My best guess is QJs or JTs.

[skp]

I don't think that many of us were trying to guess Jim's hand. We were commenting on the hand in a theoretical sense. I would certainly never have guessed that he had AK or Aq given your comment in your original post that you couldn't understand what the heck Jim was thinking. I also assumed based on your OP that you won the hand.

Anyway, my guess is JTs.

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think that many of us were trying to guess Jim's hand. We were commenting on the hand in a theoretical sense. I would certainly never have guessed that he had AK or Aq given your comment in your original post that you couldn't understand what the heck Jim was thinking. I also assumed based on your OP that you won the hand.

Anyway, my guess is JTs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you are right. It wasn't a test to see if anyone could read his hand, but I was curious if anyone else would play KJo this way.

Everyone I told this hand to was very suprised as was I.

I don't understand why he 3-bet and UTG raise from a tight player with this hand.

Once he did that, he certainly should bet the turn as there is a decent chance I will fold any overcards. He is getting 4:1 on his bet. Maybe he figured I must have a pair and was going to call him down.

What's the pont of 3-betting here if you are going to play it weakly after the flop?

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
If I'm going past the flop with this hand, I'm going strong all the way. Otherwise, just check and fold.

But having played it the way you did, why didn't you bet the river? Granted a pro probably isn't folding AK (or he wouldn't have checked the turn), but why not give him the chance to make a mistake? He probably folds KQs, or maybe even ATs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like your thinking.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]

Hint: MHIG

[/ QUOTE ]i guess this sounds lame, but i figured it was pretty obvious YHWG given the tone of the post.
i was gonna say i guess he had 89s-QJs, but i think he made a mistake checking the turn. i think he made another miostake checking the river. i also think he made a mistake threebetting UTG+1 PF. i dont see any reason not to fold PF, bet turn, bet river if he was up to something PF. reread you original post. you give us nothing. i think whatever he had, he played it quite bad... i know what you had and i think you played it bad too.

[1800GAMBLER]

I think it's extremely unlikely Jim checks AK/pocket/the-legit-hands either on the turn or then on the river, that mistake is just too big for him to make. I think something like 98s tjs qjs or some random preflop-flop-semi-bluff hand that given up on the turn when he thought you were a player who would calll down with Ax here.

[Turning Stone Pro]

Is very weak. Giving a fellow a chance to see the river card for free when he could hit all sorts of crap to pair one of his cards, resulting in a river bet and JB would either have to muck or make a crying (hysterically) call.

If JB gets check-raised on the turn, obviously 6 or 7 clean outs, so long as hero doesnt have Donald.

TSP

[andyfox]

Good points. Max probably has a backdoor flush draw too.

[skp]

800,

Why is Jim's turn check weak if he had say AK?

The pot has 9 small bets in it. Let's say the turn is a 4 making the board 2224. Max raised UTG and called the flop bet. It's reasonable to assume therefore that Max is:

a. ahead and Jim has 7 outs
b. behind and Max has 3 outs
c. behind and Max has 6 outs.

I would put (c) as being the least likely possibility and (b) as the most likely posibility. (a) falls in between.

In this factual matrix, I don't see checking with AK to be a problem so long as (a) Jim will call any river bet or (b) value bet the river if max checks.

If my logic is wrong, please point it out.

[ACPlayer]

It is tough to bluff someone off any type of genuine EP raising hand on a flop of 222. I suspect that you would call down with AK or beter (or at least he thinks you will).

He did not know that all you have is KQ.

The more interesting question is why you did not bet the river. Of course he could have been boping you would bet so he could bluff raise and that raise would have likely got you to laydown AK thru say TT or JJ.

[1800GAMBLER]

'Why is Jim's turn check weak if he had say AK?'

It wouldn't be. But then not betting the river would be weak. I must have worded my post poorly. I can't see Jim making a mistake that big (not value betting the river) or playing a pocket pair like this either; both of those mistakes are too large for him, so he must have something fruity.

What are you thoughts on this preflop/flop combo with this hand? What are your thoughts if Jim was on the button and did it?

[DanZ]

this is just not the case. It will be fairly rare that he is drawing dead - it is a 7 handed game. Also, if he is outkicked, it only costs half the pot. He's getting 8.5-1 on a call, so 4 outs is almost enough, and he may have 6 or 7. He also may get 2 cards for one bet.

[GuyOnTilt]

For two "very good" players, both of you played your hands extremely poorly.

GoT

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
'Why is Jim's turn check weak if he had say AK?'

It wouldn't be. But then not betting the river would be weak. I must have worded my post poorly. I can't see Jim making a mistake that big (not value betting the river) or playing a pocket pair like this either; both of those mistakes are too large for him, so he must have something fruity.

What are you thoughts on this preflop/flop combo with this hand? What are your thoughts if Jim was on the button and did it?

[/ QUOTE ]

But don't you think if you were to play something "fruity" like this, giving up on the hand on the turn is strange? What's the point of 3-betting pre-flop unless you are going to try to win the hand without a showdown.

Personally, I would never re-raise an UTG raiser with a "fruity" hand unless he was a maniac. If I had open raised in a later position it might be different.

As for my play, I'm still not sure. I like what Lestat has to say. I should either fold or make a play at the pot myself. This was my first time playig 40 and a little earlier I had tried to bluff Daryn with A9 and he called with A10.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]

But don't you think if you were to play something "fruity" like this, giving up on the hand on the turn is strange? What's the point of 3-betting pre-flop unless you are going to try to win the hand without a showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you completely. First of all, if he is gonna play KJo here against you, he clearly is going to have to put on some kind on move, as you are likely ahead of him preflop. IMO the turn bet is simple, and so is folding to a c/r from you. I have no idea who this guy is, but he really botched this one IMHO.

(When I first read the OP, I figured he had AA and was hoping you'd pair on the river.)

[adios]

MaxPower scared the crap out of him with his call on the flop /images/graemlins/smile.gif. There is a logic to Jim's play here but I think Jim lost site of the fact that he 3 bet pre-flop. IMO Brier should have entertained the possibility that Max put him on a decent pocket pair. Brier has a hand that doesn't have much showdown value so if he wants to buy this one he's got to bet on all the streets. From his perspective Max is favored to have an Ace or better and it's obvious that an Ace high hand isn't in too bad of shape here given the texture of the flop. He figures he's beat on the turn so he takes a free card. On the river he figures Max has an easy call with Ace high or better.. Max is not favored to have KQs. Whether or not Jim should have bet the turn is open to debate and sure if Jim could see his oppents hand he should have. If Max calls on the turn Jim almost has to bet the river IMO. Brier didn't want to invest 2 big bets to try and win the pot. I guess my only quibble with the posts in this thread FWIW is that since we knew Max's hand it's easy to state that Brier made a big mistake. Brier could only assume a range of hands.

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
'Why is Jim's turn check weak if he had say AK?'

It wouldn't be. But then not betting the river would be weak. I must have worded my post poorly. I can't see Jim making a mistake that big (not value betting the river) or playing a pocket pair like this either; both of those mistakes are too large for him, so he must have something fruity.

What are you thoughts on this preflop/flop combo with this hand? What are your thoughts if Jim was on the button and did it?

[/ QUOTE ]

But don't you think if you were to play something "fruity" like this, giving up on the hand on the turn is strange? What's the point of 3-betting pre-flop unless you are going to try to win the hand without a showdown.

Personally, I would never re-raise an UTG raiser with a "fruity" hand unless he was a maniac. If I had open raised in a later position it might be different.

As for my play, I'm still not sure. I like what Lestat has to say. I should either fold or make a play at the pot myself. This was my first time playig 40 and a little earlier I had tried to bluff Daryn with A9 and he called with A10.

[/ QUOTE ]


was jim in our game? did i miss him?

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
'Why is Jim's turn check weak if he had say AK?'

It wouldn't be. But then not betting the river would be weak. I must have worded my post poorly. I can't see Jim making a mistake that big (not value betting the river) or playing a pocket pair like this either; both of those mistakes are too large for him, so he must have something fruity.

What are you thoughts on this preflop/flop combo with this hand? What are your thoughts if Jim was on the button and did it?

[/ QUOTE ]

But don't you think if you were to play something "fruity" like this, giving up on the hand on the turn is strange? What's the point of 3-betting pre-flop unless you are going to try to win the hand without a showdown.

Personally, I would never re-raise an UTG raiser with a "fruity" hand unless he was a maniac. If I had open raised in a later position it might be different.

As for my play, I'm still not sure. I like what Lestat has to say. I should either fold or make a play at the pot myself. This was my first time playig 40 and a little earlier I had tried to bluff Daryn with A9 and he called with A10.

[/ QUOTE ]


was jim in our game? did i miss him?

[/ QUOTE ]

He might have sat down after you left. I don't remember. It was Saturday morning.