Questions for BossJJ Regarding Judaism

[BluffTHIS!]

No particular order:

1) Is there an afterlife? Does man thus posess an immortal soul?

2) You have said the torah's commands are easy to keep. How many separate commands are there altogether that must be kept?

3) Is hiring a gentile to flip your light switches or perform other labor for you on the sabbath hypocritical?

4) Are the reform and conservative branches of Judaism faithful to the requirements of the torah?

5) Since God constantly sent prophets to teach the Jewish people in the torah, why haven't there been any more or books added to the torah since a couple hundred years or so prior to the time of Christ? Is it because the torah shows a history of the Jewish people repeatedly rejecting the prophets and their teachings that God sent them to teach?

6) Are the holocaust and all the pogroms and persecutions that preceded it in history seen by Jews only as a persecution of God's chosen people or in any way as God's punishment of them and their possible lack of fidelity to the torah?

7) Is it unethical/treasonous for a Jewish American citizen who is a government or military employee, or who works in a classified position for a contractor for same, to spy for the state of Israel like Jonathan Pollard did? Or is it considered a mitzvah?

8) What are the conditions for the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem? And who will decide if those conditions have been met? Will animal sacrifices resume once it is rebuilt?

[Zygote]

i'm not bossjj, but think i know all your answers.


[ QUOTE ]

1) Is there an afterlife? Does man thus posess an immortal soul?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes there is an afterlife. There are a lot of debates on the specifics, but most agree that virtually every soul will stand in heaven after a cleansing process (hell). Heaven has different levels (some believe 3) of reward (closeness to god) dependent on your life's actions. And yes, all souls are immortal.

[ QUOTE ]

2) You have said the torah's commands are easy to keep. How many separate commands are there altogether that must be kept?


[/ QUOTE ]

There are 613 commandments for jews and 7 for non-jews.

[ QUOTE ]

3) Is hiring a gentile to flip your light switches or perform other labor for you on the sabbath hypocritical?



[/ QUOTE ]

Many jews, especially chassidic ones, hold by a tradition known as the spirit of the sabbath. This would be an evasion of the spirit of the sabbath, by many people's accounts.

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4) Are the reform and conservative branches of Judaism faithful to the requirements of the torah?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a very difficult question to answer. The only useful answer is that it depends who you ask. Most people who range from modern orthodox (liberally orthodox) to strict chassidics (those who practice beyond the letter of the law) would say that only some conservative groups are accepetable, but most of the more liberal conservatives and the reform are not considered to be torah representatives.

This is a rough issue because some ultra-orthodox groups highly disagree on certain interpretations and go as far as to say that other sects of orthodox judaism are not correctly fullfilling the torah's requirements. There is a lot of schism, even amongst the orthodox.

[ QUOTE ]
5) Since God constantly sent prophets to teach the Jewish people in the torah, why haven't there been any more or books added to the torah since a couple hundred years or so prior to the time of Christ? Is it because the torah shows a history of the Jewish people repeatedly rejecting the prophets and their teachings that God sent them to teach?

[/ QUOTE ]

There has been tons of literature since the talmud that is considered prophetic. I'm not really sure what you are asking, though. Restate your question differently and hopefully i can give a better answer.

[ QUOTE ]
6) Are the holocaust and all the pogroms and persecutions that preceded it in history seen by Jews only as a persecution of God's chosen people or in any way as God's punishment of them and their possible lack of fidelity to the torah?

[/ QUOTE ]

People have made claims of both. Those who make claims on either side have not been given much credibility by most jewish groups and authorities. They generally conclude that there are many possible answers, but there is no evidence to lead them to accept any answer. One would often say, "god's inner workings are difficult for us (humans) to comprehend".

[ QUOTE ]
7) Is it unethical/treasonous for a Jewish American citizen who is a government or military employee, or who works in a classified position for a contractor for same, to spy for the state of Israel like Jonathan Pollard did? Or is it considered a mitzvah?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on the specifics.


[ QUOTE ]
8) What are the conditions for the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem? And who will decide if those conditions have been met? Will animal sacrifices resume once it is rebuilt?

[/ QUOTE ]

taken from a website that i believe accurately answers your question:

"Standing today in what Jews believe is the historical location of the first two temples, is the Dome of the Rock, a Muslim shrine. The Al-Aqsa Mosque, the third holiest site in Islam, is located just to its south. To recognize the Dome of the Rock as the only possible rebuilt Temple, or to seriously attempt to tear it down to replace it, both constitute seemingly unresolvable religious and political problems. Nonetheless, the idea of rebuilding some Temple somewhere is difficult to abandon entirely:

For the last 1900 years, Jews have prayed that God would allow for the rebuilding of the Temple. This prayer is a formal part of the thrice daily Jewish prayer services.

However, not all rabbis agree on what would happen in a rebuilt Temple. It has traditionally been assumed that some sort of animal sacrifices would be reinstituted, in accord with the rules in Leviticus and the Talmud. However there is another opinion, beginning with Maimonides, that God deliberately has moved Jews away from sacrifices towards prayer, as prayer is a higher form of worship. Thus, some rabbis hold that sacrifices would not take place in a rebuilt Temple. Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook, the first chief rabbi of the Jewish community in pre-state Israel, holds that sacrifices will not be reinstituted.

A few, very small, Jewish groups support constructing a Third Temple today, but most Jews oppose this, for a variety of reasons. Most religious Jews feel that the Temple should only be rebuilt in the messianic era, and that it would presumptuous of people to force God's hand, as it were. Furthermore, there are many ritual impurity constrictions that are difficult to resolve, making the building's construction a practical impossibility.

Additionally, many Jews are against rebuilding the Temple due to the enormously hostile reaction from all Arab and Muslim nations that would likely result— even were the building to be complementary to those holy to Islam, there would be high suspicion that such a building project would ultimately end with the destruction of these and the rebuilding of the Temple on its original spot.

Some fundamentalist and evangelical Christian groups, especially those who follow a dispensationalist theology, believe that the Jewish people will build the Third Temple shortly before, or perhaps after, "true" Christians have been raptured."

[bossJJ]

I will respond in more detail later to all the questions, but now I just want to address to one comment that you made:
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You have said the torah's commands are easy to keep.

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No, I did not say that. What I said is that they "are not too hard to keep," which is not the same thing. That is, it's somewhere in between. Probably a medium level of difficulty, although we just don't look at it this way at all so it's hard to quantify. It's really not a topic of debate among Jews.

Of course, if keeping the Torah meant, "being perfect your whole life and never committing even one sin," then it would be too hard to keep. One of my points has been that God doesn't require perfection. His justice is balanced by His mercy. He knows that we all sometimes sin, so that's why He provided a means of atonement (repentence). There is absolutely nothing in the bible to support the Christian belief that God requires perfection (or jesus) and that (without jesus) a single sin deserves eternal damnation.

When we repent, it's as if we never sinned at all. The bible has God stating that several individuals were righteous (and this doesn't imply that they were the only ones). One was King David who sinned, repented, was forgiven (without bringing a blood sacrifice), then after His death God said in several verses that David had followed His laws. (I gave all the relevant bible verses in the other thread.)

Sin is "missing the mark." If someone inadvertantly sins, then dies suddenly without having the chance to repent, that doesn't mean that he will suffer eternal damnation. In Judaism, sin is an action, not a state of being evil and separate from God. Just as a loving human father wouldn't kill, banish or eternally torture his son just for making a single mistake, God doesn't do that to us either. We believe in a much more merciful God.

[BluffTHIS!]

Thank you for your responses. In regards to this:

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[ QUOTE ]

5) Since God constantly sent prophets to teach the Jewish people in the torah, why haven't there been any more or books added to the torah since a couple hundred years or so prior to the time of Christ? Is it because the torah shows a history of the Jewish people repeatedly rejecting the prophets and their teachings that God sent them to teach?

[/ QUOTE ]
There has been tons of literature since the talmud that is considered prophetic. I'm not really sure what you are asking, though. Restate your question differently and hopefully i can give a better answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then perhaps I should ask you to define what makes a writing a part of the torah or not, as I assume Jews do not accept a later Christian definition of same as by the Councils of Alexandria or Trent. Thus, whether or not later talmudic writings might be considered prohphetic, are any of them recognized as having the same status as the Book of Isaiah for example, that of a divinely inspired writing? If the answer is no, then back to my original question of why have there not been more such writings in the past 2000 years, especially given the long diaspora?

Also, regarding the temple, how is it that the Jews for almost 2000 years can be considered to be properly practicing their religion without a temple after it's last destruction? And regarding the possible future sight of a rebuilt temple, if it is God's will for it to be rebuilt, why should Jews care one bit about destroying whatever Islamic sites that might be necessary since they are only johnny-come-lately usurpers of a sacred site? I would offer my own additional comment, that because of the differing interpretations of whether/when the temple should be rebuilt, that Judaism seems to be just avoiding the issue, which would seem to come to a head with the establishment of the Jewish state, regardless of praying for same every day.

[David Sklansky]

Trying to get to the bottom of things by asking rather than saying? A Catholic David Sklanky? Oy Gevalt.

[BluffTHIS!]

I don't wear glasses, and my forhead still has noticibly more hair than yours. And I trust the cry of anguish is yours, you foygel.

[bossJJ]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you for your responses. In regards to this:[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
5) Since God constantly sent prophets to teach the Jewish people in the torah, why haven't there been any more or books added to the torah since a couple hundred years or so prior to the time of Christ? Is it because the torah shows a history of the Jewish people repeatedly rejecting the prophets and their teachings that God sent them to teach?

[/ QUOTE ]

[Zygote] There has been tons of literature since the talmud that is considered prophetic. I'm not really sure what you are asking, though. Restate your question differently and hopefully i can give a better answer.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then perhaps I should ask you to define what makes a writing a part of the torah or not, as I assume Jews do not accept a later Christian definition of same as by the Councils of Alexandria or Trent. Thus, whether or not later talmudic writings might be considered prohphetic, are any of them recognized as having the same status as the Book of Isaiah for example, that of a divinely inspired writing? If the answer is no, then back to my original question of why have there not been more such writings in the past 2000 years, especially given the long diaspora?

[/ QUOTE ]

The men of the Great Assembly decided which books to include in the bible. They were the successors of Moses and had the authority to do so. "Which books should be included in the bible?" is a separate question from "What makes someone a prophet?" The "Writings" of the bible aren't prophecy, and there were prophets who words weren't made part of the bible. Those included had a message for future generations, not just their own time. No more books were added because we have everything we need to know in the existing bible.

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Is it because the torah shows a history of the Jewish people repeatedly rejecting the prophets and their teachings that God sent them to teach?

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No. We did not reject their words at all. They were made part of the bible. It is ridiculous to claim that we rejected the prophets. On the contrary, we put them in the bible; We include in our scriptures descriptions of our many sins and the harsh rebukes and punishments we received as a result, while leaving out the times when people were righteous. We are a very self-critical people, and the words of the prophets are included so that future generations may learn from it.

Malachi was the last prophet, and prophecy ended with him, although it will return in the messianic age. You will have to ask Zygote to clarify what he means by "prophetic books." We do believe that "divine inspiration" continues, which is a lesser degree of relevation than prophecy.

About the bible:
Torah (http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm)

About the Prophets:
prophet (http://www.jewfaq.org/prophet.htm)
What is Prophecy? (http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=84902)
The Prophets (http://www.wujs.org.il/activist/learning/guide/neviim.shtml)

About the men of the Great Assembly:
The Great Assembly (http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_26_-_The_Great_Assembly.asp)

About Divine Inspiraton:
Divine_Inspiration_Part_One (http://www.aish.com/literacy/concepts/Divine_Inspiration_Part_One.asp)

About Rabbinic Authority:
Hillel and Shammai (http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_Part_32_-_Hillel_and_Shammai.asp)

[bossJJ]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, regarding the temple, how is it that the Jews for almost 2000 years can be considered to be properly practicing their religion without a temple after it's last destruction?

[/ QUOTE ]

The Temple is not required to "properly practice" our religion. Where did you get this ridicuous idea from? Oh yeah, the greek testament, which contradicts the Hebrew bible by claiming that a blood sacrifice is required to atone for sin. But as I've discussed extensively in the other thread, the bible clearly states that sincere repentence alone atones for sin. Some verses state outright that God prefers prayer. During the first exile, Jews were also without the Temple. Even when it was standing, many Jews lived too far to get there often. We don't need the Temple to atone for sin or to get close to God.

When the Temple was standing, it was one way, but not the only way, to atone for unintentional sins. We are not required to bring sacrifices. In fact, without the Temple, it is actually forbidden, because that is the only place we may do it.

Long before the Temple was destroyed, the prophets predicted it would happen. It was already foretold; it was not because we rejected your idol jesus. God commanded us to reject your false god; that's one of the things they were doing right.

The prophets said that without the Temple, the prayer of repentance would atone for sin. They did not say that worshipping some dead fake messiah will atone for sin. Even the real messiah won't atone for sin. That's just not his role. God forgives us our sins when we repent, so we don't need the messiah to do that.

About the Temple:
qorbanot - sacrifices and offerings (http://www.jewfaq.org/qorbanot.htm)

Proof from the Hebrew bible that jesus' alleged sacrifice could not atone for sin:
http://www.outreachjudaism.org/jesusdeath.html

[bossJJ]

[ QUOTE ]
And regarding the possible future sight of a rebuilt temple, if it is God's will for it to be rebuilt, why should Jews care one bit about destroying whatever Islamic sites that might be necessary since they are only johnny-come-lately usurpers of a sacred site? I would offer my own additional comment, that because of the differing interpretations of whether/when the temple should be rebuilt, that Judaism seems to be just avoiding the issue, which would seem to come to a head with the establishment of the Jewish state, regardless of praying for same every day.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Temple will be rebuilt when the messiah comes. God is not commanding us to do it ahead of time. Trying to force it to be built ahead of time won't bring the messiah if it's not his time. It would just cause all sorts of problems, probably a big war and the deaths of many innocent people. It's just an all around dumb idea.

[BluffTHIS!]

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The Temple will be rebuilt when the messiah comes.

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Can you give a biblical quote for this? I suspect not since it was last destroyed after the last book of the Hebrew bible was written. If it's just based on talmudic writings and thus is a "consensus", then that's a very convenient interpretation.

[bossJJ]

Read all of Ezekial from chapters 40-48. The prophet goes into minute detail discussing the rebuilding of the Temple and the sacrifices that will occur there. You Christians are just incredibly ignorant when it comes to the Hebrew bible. How could you miss ALL those verses? And here's a couple more:

"For thus saith the Lord: David shall never be without man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel. Neither shall the priest, the levites, be without man before Me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually." (Jer 33:17-18)

"...and I will set My Sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. My temple also shall be with them. Yes, I will be their God and they shall be My people. And the gentiles shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them forevermore." (Ezekiel 37:26-28)

[BluffTHIS!]

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Read all of Ezekial from chapters 40-48. The prophet goes into minute detail discussing the rebuilding of the Temple

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And you conveniently interpret that to mean after the last destruction by the Romans instead of a previous one.

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Neither shall the priest, the levites, be without man before Me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually." (Jer 33:17-18)

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And thus out of your own mouth you prove your total stupidity and use of the same facts in support of contradictory points in different posts, since for almost 2000 years with no temple there haven't been burnt offerings and meat sacrifices offered, unless the couple times I've been to services with a Jewish friend they just skipped that part because of the presence of a gentile.

[Zygote]

[ QUOTE ]
And thus out of your own mouth you prove your total stupidity and use of the same facts in support of contradictory points in different posts, since for almost 2000 years with no temple there haven't been burnt offerings and meat sacrifices offered, unless the couple times I've been to services with a Jewish friend they just skipped that part because of the presence of a gentile.


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Sacrifices cannot be made without the holy temple. You are right to say that Jews cannot complete all the outlined mitzvot without the temple, however, they are only required to fulfill mitvahs they are capable of completing. There are quite a few examples of situations where jews are required to complete a mitzvah, but are unable to do so due to a lack of resources. In all cases, mitzvot are performed to the best of man's abilities.

[Zygote]

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Malachi was the last prophet, and prophecy ended with him, although it will return in the messianic age. You will have to ask Zygote to clarify what he means by "prophetic books." We do believe that "divine inspiration" continues, which is a lesser degree of relevation than prophecy.


[/ QUOTE ]

Prophecy was the wrong word for me to use. My words intended to mean divinely inspired, thank you.

[Zygote]

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Then perhaps I should ask you to define what makes a writing a part of the torah or not

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The Torah outlines that traditions (minhagim) that are practiced over time will become laws of the torah. That is why Jews of different bankgrounds are required to abide by slightly different laws and interpretations that have been established over time.

Also, the Torah is interpreted to state that the greatest Chachomim (jewish rabbi's/scholars/leaders) are be able to make laws and literature based on their interpretations and inspirations that should be considered as part of the torah.

[bossJJ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Read all of Ezekial from chapters 40-48. The prophet goes into minute detail discussing the rebuilding of the Temple

[/ QUOTE ]

And you conveniently interpret that to mean after the last destruction by the Romans instead of a previous one.

[ QUOTE ]
Neither shall the priest, the levites, be without man before Me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually." (Jer 33:17-18)

[/ QUOTE ]

And thus out of your own mouth you prove your total stupidity and use of the same facts in support of contradictory points in different posts, since for almost 2000 years with no temple there haven't been burnt offerings and meat sacrifices offered, unless the couple times I've been to services with a Jewish friend they just skipped that part because of the presence of a gentile.

[/ QUOTE ]

The verses are saying that once the Temple is rebuilt, it will remain forever. It won't be destroyed again. Therefore these verses were not fulfilled when the second Temple was built. They are talking about the messianic age, when the messiah from the Davidic line is King of Israel:

"David shall never be without man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel. Neither shall the priest, the levites, be without man before Me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually." (Jer 33:17-18)

The verses before Ezekiel 37:26 also show that this is in the messianic age. They describe the ingathering of the Jews back in Israel, the resurrection of the dead, the reunification of the House of Israel (i.e. - the "ten lost tribes") with the house of Judah, all Jews following Torah and no more sin among them, the Davidic king on the thrown, and of course the rebuilt Temple. These verses haven't been fulfilled yet because the messiah has not yet come.

Read the entire Chapter 37 of Ezekial - all the verses are talking about the messianic age. And they are all prophecies which your fake messiah Jesus failed to fulfill. Here's a link to Ezekial 37 (in a Christian bible, the NRSV):
Ezekial 37 (http://bible.oremus.org/browser.cgi?passage=Ezekiel+37)

[Gamblor]

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No particular order:

1) Is there an afterlife? Does man thus posess an immortal soul?

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There's no hell. The Rambam likened heaven to a giant dinner table. Everyone gets a seat, but the size of your fork is directly proportional to the righteousness of your life. Hence, the worst you can get is nothing.

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2) You have said the torah's commands are easy to keep. How many separate commands are there altogether that must be kept?

[/ QUOTE ]

613. As such, this number reappears often in customs and prayers (i.e. many prayers have 613 words)
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3) Is hiring a gentile to flip your light switches or perform other labor for you on the sabbath hypocritical?

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In my opinion, yes. Some allow it, others don't. Most would say it violates the "spirit" of the day of rest. many people use timers to handle lights on saturday. many don't for the same reason.

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4) Are the reform and conservative branches of Judaism faithful to the requirements of the torah?

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in my opinion, no, but they'll argue with you. I'm of the opinion that these branches basically got lazy and reduced the obligations to the easier and "funner" customs. Of course, these branches are North American creations and have only recently begun to seep into Israeli Judaism, which is basically "we're the ones actually holding down the fort, so [censored] traditions".

[ QUOTE ]
5) Since God constantly sent prophets to teach the Jewish people in the torah, why haven't there been any more or books added to the torah since a couple hundred years or so prior to the time of Christ? Is it because the torah shows a history of the Jewish people repeatedly rejecting the prophets and their teachings that God sent them to teach?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's very easy to claim prophethood, but the Torah lays out lots of qualifications that any prophet would have passed, and no, Jesus did not pass them. The most obvious being that God claims that while he sends prophets to reiterate his messages, he will never send a prophet to change the his laws.

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6) Are the holocaust and all the pogroms and persecutions that preceded it in history seen by Jews only as a persecution of God's chosen people or in any way as God's punishment of them and their possible lack of fidelity to the torah?

[/ QUOTE ]

The religious wackos believe that it's a punishment, in fact the super-religious believe that the State of Israel is anti-Jewish because it can not come about until the messiah. I say 6 million died? let's give the messiah a little push.

[ QUOTE ]

7) Is it unethical/treasonous for a Jewish American citizen who is a government or military employee, or who works in a classified position for a contractor for same, to spy for the state of Israel like Jonathan Pollard did? Or is it considered a mitzvah?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. You are either Israeli or American. That said, I have zero doubt the USA has spies in Israel. Consider it the price of peace. Put it this way; Israel has much more to gain from the partnership and thus has much more incentive to appease the US by shipping any new technology directly to the White house, while the US has little to gain from sending their new stuff overseas (unless, of course, there is a healthy price tag attached)

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8) What are the conditions for the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem? And who will decide if those conditions have been met? Will animal sacrifices resume once it is rebuilt?

[/ QUOTE ]

The temple, were it to be rebuilt, would require the demolition of the dome of the rock.

So, given Question 1, I'd say that hell would have to freeze over.

[jcx]

3) Is hiring a gentile to flip your light switches or perform other labor for you on the sabbath hypocritical?

Out of curiousity what tasks can ultra-orthodox Jews perform on the Sabbath? Can one flush the toilet? How would operating the commode be any different than switching on the lights? Not trying to be a nit, looking for a serious answer.