Leaks Abound? - Plumber needed.

[calvin]

Hello,

OK, I am writing after increasing my losing streak to 150BB at 3/6 at Canterbury Park, and, other than the fact that I have lost 150BB, I feel like my game couldn't be much sharper.

I am not playing marginal cards, I am playing position well, my reads are great, I don't often open-limp, I don't chase without odds...in fact, I think I have been playing some pretty solid poker. Yet...I seem to find myself in a ton of really marginal situations, or making a second best hand with the best hand preflop.

I hope to bring a few hands out to discuss later, but, for instance:

UTG announces he is going to straddle and play the rest of the hand blind. I am UTG+2 and make it three bets with AQo, folded to LP player who calls my three, as does the straddler.

Flop comes T 8 4r.

Straddler (blindly) bets, I call, LP player calls.

Turn makes the board T 8 4 3r.

Straddler bets, I call, LP calls.

River makes final board T 8 4 3 2.

Straddler bets, I call, LP calls.

Straddler turns over 76 for 7 high, I turn over my AQ and the LP player turns over AJs. My hand is good.

Do I need to reconsider my play? Call, call, call seems like a poor way to play to me.

I use this hand because I think it is a very good example about almost all of the hands that I end up winning lately. My good cards are getting cracked, and I find myself with an underpair, some weird draw, or an unimproved big hand...and those seem to be the only times that I can win. Any time I get a piece of the flop, four flushes come in...small two pairs are made, sets are cracked...I don't think I need to write a bad beat post, but if there's a way to beat me lately, someone usually finds a way. Over the first 75-100BB of loses, I was thinking, "yeah, it will catch up to them, pretty soon my hands will hold up again." But now...I am feeling a little less sure.

I realize that my best option is to post as many hands as I can for review, but I have just been getting ground down lately, and it is beyond me.

150BB is quite a bit for me at my 3/6 game, and I also took a few shots at the sof 6/12, and had one substanial losing session.

I see all the angles, I have some balls to play them, and I even have some cards - I am losing.


Perhaps I should take a break? I read the forums daily, reference HEPFAP, and play in small limit home games fairly often. I also have had no problem making 2+ BB/hour on the PP small limit games, including the 1/2 shorthanded and the 1/2 and .5/1 full table games. When I get to the playing live 3/6 lately, I am a losing player and then some.

Didn't mean to write anything near a whining bad beat story - but I am at a loss for my extended losing streak and it doesn't match up with other games I play in or how I feel about my game.

Thanks for any and all replies,
Calvin

[Bob T.]

You can't go away on the flop on this hand, but you could have raised, and reduced your opponents outs by three if you could have folded LP.

Your approach might have been OK also.

I have had 150 BB losses in online games, and I am well ahead in those games. I believe Clarkmeister recently posted that last year, he had three losing stretches over 100 big bets, and one of 150. It is possible that you could be playing well, and still have a losing streak of that size.

You also have to keep in mind that you are playing in what has to be one of the most volatile games on the planet. Whenever I have watched the 3-6, it seems that 7 players are seeing each flop, and the pots get HUGE. If you happen to win one less of those, than your fair share in a session, you would be down about 15 big bets for that session. I almost wonder, if you might be playing too tight after the flop. If it goes three bets, seven ways preflop, you don't need much of the flop to continue, and if you fold too often under these conditions, you might not be getting your share of those big pots. It might feel like those folds are good poker, but then again, they might not be.

Like you said, you need to post some hands, and then we can try and figure it out.

[PokerPrince]

Pop the flop. There's a good chance you're ahead of the blind bettor and this puts some pressure on LP. You made the most money the way you played it but I still think raising on the flop is the best option.

PokerPrince

[JTG51]

Straddler (blindly) bets, I call, LP player calls.

I think the flop play is a big mistake. You would really like to play this hand heads up against the blind player. I'd raise the flop to try to force out LP. You'd obviously love for him to fold AK (which is probably unlikely) or a small pair. If he has a hand like KJ, which has 6 outs against you, making him fold will greatly increase your chances of winning the pot.

The pot is getting bigish. It's time to think about putting in an extra bet or two in order to increase your chances of winning.

[Dynasty]

Pop the flop. There's a good chance you're ahead of the blind bettor

Of course. Raising the flop is clearly best and it's not even close. In fact not only is it a "good chance", I'd say you're ahead of the blind bettor about 60-65% of the time and are drawing live to six outs when you are behind about 30% of the time.

This hand was played atrociously and is probably a sign that calvin is not playing "some pretty solid poker" post-flop. His game was not sharp at all in this hand.

A truly horribly played hand post-flop

[Ed Miller]

Why didn't you raise the flop? You have no reason at all to think you don't have the best hand, and you have a 3rd opponent in the hand.

[Dynasty]

I am not playing marginal cards...I seem to find myself in a ton of really marginal situations

The exact definition of marginal cards and marginal situations is not clear by your post. However, we should all recognize that your profit in hold'em is made with your marginal hands in marginal situations.

Even the worst players at the table get dealt AA, KK, QQ, JJ, and AKs as often as you do and earn quite a bit of money from them. They also make nut flushes, nut straights, and sets and earn money from those hands. You approach the break-even point with your big hands.

The profit in hold'em comes from how well you play more marginal stuff post-flop. How well do you play top pair with KQ/KJ/KT/QJ/QT/JT? How well do you play when you miss the flop with overcards against several opponents? Or few opponents? How well do you play unimproved pocket pairs?

[bernie]

i wouldve raised the flop or turn....i want the LP..who could have a better hand, to fold. he may even fold a pkt pair...

i dont like the way you played post flop....did you play this hand just so you could call it down? HU, i can see it, but not 3 way or more....

i played a hand once where i had AQ and a guy behind me had AK....i was in a different gear when this hand came up...i was raising alot preflop with all kinds of things....yet playing the flop very well...i was actually well in control of the table at this time, when i was in the pots....

anyway, i was UTG..i raised, i think there may have been a caller, then he reraised, he had seen some of my marginal preflop raises, and 2 mor callers come in....

flop was rags...i check, checked to an LP who bet, i raised, AK folded after some thought, and only the bettor called...

turn was an A....i bet it out, got called, river blanked and i won...

when the flop came and i c/r, i almost knew for sure that the AK guy had AK after he checked behind me....thats how he played that hand after 3 betting preflop...

the AK hand just sat and seethed a little, staring at me as i grinned at him...after seeing my hand...but the fact is, had i just called, he wouldve had a much easier decision to call behind me on the flop...

btw...this session i had the image going of raisng alot preflop, but not just betting anything on the flop. many were afraid to bet into me at this point....

you mentioned you were playing position. you didnt use your position at all this hand. you gave 12 outs a cheap draw to beat you....

b

[bernie]

i dont think its a matter of having the best hand at this point...its a matter of elliciting info on the players hand behind you. trying to get him out even if he does have the better hand. your not worried too much about the straddler at this point, its the coldcaller behind you

didnt he cold call 2 or 3 bets? (ill have to look back)
you want him out of there if possible...

he could very well be behind, and thats a valid thought, but he can also gain the lead making the lead hand fold.

b

[bernie]

this is a hand from long ago, but is more similar than the one in my original response...

i raise in MP with AK...button cold calls, BB calls
3 to the flop

flop is rainbow...J x x

BB bets, i raise, button folds, BB calls..

turn...blank....checked thru..the BB seemed very, very miffed at my check behind....he represented a missed checkraise by his reaction to my check...

river K the look on the BB's face, he reeeeaallly didnt want to see that card.

he checks i bet, he calls with his pair of Js...

button moans mentioning he had AK also....then snidley comliments me on nicely betting the flop..

get the idea?

b

[calvin]

Bob,

I appreciate your insights as I know you play at the same club as I do. The 3/6 game can be, as you mentioned, very volatile, but it can also be very weak-tight - like most games, it depends a lot on the lineup. I think you make a valid point here, and I am thninking that perhaps I should consider playing in the more often than not weak 4-8 and 6-12 games instead.

I agree that there can be a big amount of variance based on a missed pot or two if the game is very loose and or aggressive, but I would not classify most of the games I hav e played in under either of those conditions.

Thanks for your comments, I hope to reanalyze my play and perhaps stop playing for a somewhat extended time while I build my bank roll working. I am a somewhat poor college student, so this streak has caused me to be a little anxious. Not to say that I play with money that I need for anything else - it is just difficult to replace my bankroll if I lose it.

Calvin

[calvin]

Hello,

I agree, I should have (at the minimum) raised the flop.

Calvin

[calvin]

Dynasty,

You are, of course, right on with your assessment of my play. My play post-flop had no semblance of solid play, on any street.

Calvin

[Mike Gallo]

This hand was played atrociously and is probably a sign that calvin is not playing "some pretty solid poker" post-flop. His game was not sharp at all in this hand.

Summed up perfectly /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

Read Getting the Best of It from David Sklansky. You made one of the 8 mistakes a player can make. You called when you should have raised.

You want to put pressure on anyone who is in the hand with you. Don't let anyone draw cheap.

[calvin]

Hello,

I completely agree with you, and I make the most of all of my unimproved pocket pairs, and weaker Kings, Queens and Jacks.

If anything, I won the majority of my hands with unimproved pocket pairs, and hands such as KQ, KJ, KT, QJ, etc. These hands are all very easy for me to play in this game. More often than not making top pair with any of these hands is simply the best hand, and a medium pocket pair on a soft board with, say, a naked king, is almost always an easy win.

The hands that I remember most clearly as costing me, were, in brief, AQs losing to Q9 on a final board of Q3389, and 44 for a flopped set losing to a Q high flush on a four heart board.

I think I phrased my initial question poorly when I said I find myself in a lot of marginal situations and that this is a problem. What I wanted to express is, I find it (for the most part) easier to play my unimproved pocket pairs against loose aggressive oppents I know, to bet strongly with a hand like KJo, and play aggressively overall both a large and small field.

I seem to be fairing much less than break even with my big hands, and when I flop a strong hand, such as a set or top pair top kicker, I find myself betting and raising on every street to be beaten. Maybe I shouldn't be jamming the pot up - but if I don't do this with my best hands, when should I?

I concede greatly that my play in the hands I mentioned earlier in this thread was no where near acceptable, but I was down to about $20 of my buy in and feeling very confused as far as the session itself went.

I am frustrated because I am making strong and good plays with all of the hands you described - those that are "marginal" - and also flopping strong hands to boot. What I can't figure out is how I have managed to lose 150BB.

After I busted out, I sat with a friend for several hours that night, and, although not exactly in agreeance with card club rules, he often conferred with me on what his action should be at a given time in a givend hand - my read was always right on and my friend went on a tear, winning a ton.

It was very frustrating to feel like I knew how to play every hand he was in, but only be there because I busted out of my own session.

Calvin

[calvin]

Bernie,

Thank you for your replies. I seem to play in a very similiar manner to you, and I know many of the raises I throw in preflop have saved me a lot of hands. I understand exactly what you are saying and I will certainly keep your advice in mind at any table I play at.

I know the hand I referenced earlier in the thread really makes my play look weak - and it is very different than my normal play. I was almost busted out - and didn't have a read on the LP player. The blind bettor was confusing for me, as he was a reasonable player until that point - I was rattled and went into check call mode. No excuses though, I know I should have been more aggressive in that spot.

Calvin

[Forsaken]

[JTG51]

After I busted out, I sat with a friend for several hours that night, and, although not exactly in agreeance with card club rules, he often conferred with me on what his action should be at a given time in a givend hand - my read was always right on and my friend went on a tear, winning a ton.

I hope I misunderstood that. Are you saying you sat at the table with your friend, and told him how to play his hands?

If that's the case you should be barred from the card room forever. It's absolutely unbelieveable to me that this was allowed to happen.

[Ed Miller]

If that's the case you should be barred from the card room forever.

Are you serious, JTG? The floor should explain to him that it is one player to a hand and that he shouldn't discuss hands with his friend... but barring him forever without warning is more than a little overboard.

[JTG51]

Are you serious, JTG?

No, I'm not really serious. I didn’t make it clear, but I'm exaggerating a bit. Calvin obviously knows the one player to a hand rule though. For a player to knowingly break the rule is a pretty lousy thing to do, in my opinion. I'm real big on the integrity of the game.

[calvin]

Hello,

Sorry if I made it sound like I was feeding him what to do on a hand to hand basis. All of our commentary came after the fact, and in each instance the play I would have done was the correct play. My friend, for the most part made the same plays I would have, but when he made a mistake we had something to talk about after the hand (when he didn't have cards, etc.).

Of course, it is one player per hand.

Calvin

[JTG51]

Calvin,

I'm glad I just misunderstood the post. Thanks for clearing it up.