SNG's vs cash games - advice sought (long)

[45suited]

I've been playing SNG's for about a year with good success. I'm about to move up to the 22s exclusively, but recently I've gotten kind of burned out / bored with the grind of the SNGs. So I started playing NL25. These games are so soft that my $ / hr (over a small sample size) has actually been higher than my SNG $ / hr. Again, the NL25 sample size is small so I'm not putting much stock into the actual rate. Here is my question, keeping in mind that I just started playing poker 1 year ago. I want to keep improving as an all-around poker player, but I also don't want this to hurt my $ /hr too drastically.

Given the vastly different considerations between SNGs and cash games, can I (as a non-genius but a player killing the lower levels) effectively play both SNGs and cash games OR will playing the cash games hurt my SNG play by getting me out of that mindset?

Will playing cash games help my SNG play in any way (post flop play perhaps) or will it hurt it? Has anybody run into problems by trying to play alot of both?

(I bring this up because there was just a thread in the other forum where a guy had QQ and faced a mini re-raise pre-flop. An ace flopped, queen came on the turn, and most of the guys on that forum didn't want to raise the river. I was like, "I play SNG's! Push it! Don't worry about set over set!" but I was in the minority.)

It got me to thinking that trying to get good at both games might just hurt me in the short run.

Comments / flames would be appreciated.

[gildwulf]

I find that if you really want to get better at poker and want to play cash games, you should try 6-max (as long as you stomach the swings). Your pre-flop game from playing SNGs should be very advanced and your post-flop game would probably be weaker than someone who has been playing cash games for a year...so it would be a good place to start and get your ass kicked and learn a few things.

That being said, NL25 is snugglebear soft and is always good for money...but I doubt you will learn much from that.

So it depends...if you want to learn more and improve your cash game and SNG game, play 6-max (reads are vital whereas you can get away with just playing your cards in a 10-max NL25)...I guarantee you this will improve your SNG game. If you juts want the cash, I guess NL25 or 50 would be good...

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
I find that if you really want to get better at poker and want to play cash games, you should try 6-max (as long as you stomach the swings). Your pre-flop game from playing SNGs should be very advanced and your post-flop game would probably be weaker than someone who has been playing cash games for a year...so it would be a good place to start and get your ass kicked and learn a few things.

That being said, NL25 is snugglebear soft and is always good for money...but I doubt you will learn much from that.

So it depends...if you want to learn more and improve your cash game and SNG game, play 6-max (reads are vital whereas you can get away with just playing your cards in a 10-max NL25)...I guarantee you this will improve your SNG game. If you juts want the cash, I guess NL25 or 50 would be good...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is really good advice, in my opinion. I concur.

Irieguy

[11t]

the 25 6-max is full of drunks late at night too /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[gildwulf]

hehe...I prefer limit six-max just because I'm not 100% with my reads yet and if I'm going to check-call someone down with a pair of 3s or ace-high I'd rather not do it for all my chips.

[45suited]

Thanks for the advice. So you would recommend 6 max? Is the 25NL too fishy (won't learn anything)? B/R isn't really a consideration (up like 7k since starting SNGs) so I should probably just start on 6 max NL50?

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
hehe...I prefer limit six-max just because I'm not 100% with my reads yet and if I'm going to check-call someone down with a pair of 3s or ace-high I'd rather not do it for all my chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Limit to me is like craps for TJ Cloutier! Just a place for me to piss away my winnings. Gotta stay away from that!

[gildwulf]

Hehe...if you want to get started on six-max, the HUSH forum has a really good starting hand chart (it's basically raise or fold for way more hands than you will be used to playing...very fun)...it gives about a 28/18 VPIP/PFR ratio and is a good starting point for six-max players.

It should be somewhere near the top of the forum if you click replies or number of views...

[Meatmaw]

I took a look and all I can find is an article with starting hands in limit play. Were you referring to a NL one somewhere? I'd definitely be interested to learn some basic tips in this (as I'm strictly an NL SNG player) to improve my play.

[gildwulf]

here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1897985&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=7&o=14&fpart=1)

[Meatmaw]

were you talking about taking this chart (which I assume is for limit) and simply using it as a general guide to nl, figuring it's good enough for the beginner? Or is there a nl table embedded in there somewhere?

I'd love to find pointers to NL cash games. What am I doing here, I should be perusing the small stakes PL NL thread I guess. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[bkbluedevil]

Isn't this post and basically all the advice in that forum for Short handed limit? Isn't there a big difference between limit and no limit as far as what hands you can play?

[Meatmaw]

That's what I was figuring. Where are the definitive posts/guides to NL ring? And why did we post under 1-table in the first place? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[gildwulf]

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't this post and basically all the advice in that forum for Short handed limit? Isn't there a big difference between limit and no limit as far as what hands you can play?

[/ QUOTE ]

My OP suggested he switch to limit 6-max and I provided the link. I have no idea how to play NL 6-max and don't know where you can get info on that.

[infinite_loop]

I appreciate the thread and replies. But I'm just wondering if anyone has legitimate reasoning to support SnG grinding to hurt or at least not help your overall poker game. I say this because I enjoy limit cash games a lot, and considered mixing some in after I build a bankroll sizeable enough for me to play limits profitable enough for me. Thoughts?

[zaphod]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find that if you really want to get better at poker and want to play cash games, you should try 6-max (as long as you stomach the swings). Your pre-flop game from playing SNGs should be very advanced and your post-flop game would probably be weaker than someone who has been playing cash games for a year...so it would be a good place to start and get your ass kicked and learn a few things.

That being said, NL25 is snugglebear soft and is always good for money...but I doubt you will learn much from that.

So it depends...if you want to learn more and improve your cash game and SNG game, play 6-max (reads are vital whereas you can get away with just playing your cards in a 10-max NL25)...I guarantee you this will improve your SNG game. If you juts want the cash, I guess NL25 or 50 would be good...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is really good advice, in my opinion. I concur.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been playing a decent amount of NL ring game, 6 max lately. It is great fun, and i belive i learn quite a bit of this postflop thing, that i has been neglecting when playning SNG's. My impression so far is that it should be as beatable as the SNG's. I play very loose, and it is quite refreshing to mix it up from the uberthight style on the early levels in SNG's.

I don't have a clue how loose you can play optimally. But luckily my opponents seems to have even less clue, so it has worked out ok so far. I would say you should give it a try.

A good mix for me is too play one 6max table, and 2-3 SNG's. That way i can focus on the 6 max table in the early levels of the SNG's. The good thing about this it that it helps me from beeing bored at the early levels of the SNG's.
I think playing 6max NL will make you a better pokerplayer.

[lacky]

so, if you are up 7k in the $11's, why so slow moving up? This is in no way critisism, I'm playing 109's on a vastly inflated bankroll myself. Yes, you will learn alot playing other games, but you will also learn alot moving up in sng's. The 55's will be almost as much an education as 25nl.

Steve

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
so, if you are up 7k in the $11's, why so slow moving up? This is in no way critisism, I'm playing 109's on a vastly inflated bankroll myself. Yes, you will learn alot playing other games, but you will also learn alot moving up in sng's. The 55's will be almost as much an education as 25nl.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I've built my roll playing the 11s and some 22s (after starting on the 5s). I've been slow moving up because I just haven't been in a hurry to. I played my first hand of poker a year ago and figured that I'd learn as much as I could (as cheaply as possible at the beginning) and that making money (initially) would be a bonus.

I have no problem gambling during the game, but I'm just more conservative when it comes to my bankroll.

Obviously at this point, I need to move up but it's nice to know that I always have the comfort zone of the 11s and 22s to re-build my b/r if I run into problems.

Also, I think that I'd like to play cash games because it will make me a more well rounded player. Definitely it should help my post flop play, which will come in handy if I decide to ever take MTTs seriously as well.

But I do get that question about why I took so long moving up frequently and I don't take offense to it. I'd rather move up too slowly than too quickly...

[lacky]

well, you will hear around this forum I'm the biggest bankroll wimp around. But, untill you've proven to yourself you can make more at a lower level, you really need to make those jumps if the money means anything to you (it doesn't for some, which is fine) When I move up I basically want enough money to survive the worst possible outcome and still have enough for the lower level I will retreat to AND enough to pay myself (poker is my only income, and I like power and food, etc.)

So, realitically, if you get over 100 buyins for the next higher level, go for it. If you drop 50 buyins (ugh!), you can drop down to the lower level and still have 100 buyins for that level. Same principle applies for limit or nl ring. Even if the money is secondary to learning, you can only learn so much playing in the lowest levels against players that are not thinking. You need to challange yourself in order to grow.

Steve

[gildwulf]

A complete guide to short-handed play can be found here (http://vindikation.com/poker/shorthanded.pdf). That should help.

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find that if you really want to get better at poker and want to play cash games, you should try 6-max (as long as you stomach the swings). Your pre-flop game from playing SNGs should be very advanced and your post-flop game would probably be weaker than someone who has been playing cash games for a year...so it would be a good place to start and get your ass kicked and learn a few things.

That being said, NL25 is snugglebear soft and is always good for money...but I doubt you will learn much from that.

So it depends...if you want to learn more and improve your cash game and SNG game, play 6-max (reads are vital whereas you can get away with just playing your cards in a 10-max NL25)...I guarantee you this will improve your SNG game. If you juts want the cash, I guess NL25 or 50 would be good...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is really good advice, in my opinion. I concur.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

Irie:

In my first reading of gildwulf's post, I assumed he was talking about 6-max NL. Later in the thread he clarifies that he means 6-max limit. Does your comment above also endorse limit, or do you think that 6-max NL would be a better form for improving SnG skills?

Thanks.

[Unarmed]

How to be a 6-max NL LAG:
Link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1618086&page=&view=&sb=5& o=&vc=1)

I should charge for linking that. /images/graemlins/grin.gif