Am I a fish?

[kongo_totte]

Party NL50. I haven't played a hand in like 3 orbits. Villian on the button ($50)is tight-passive pre-flop. I put him on an over pair (with a much lesser chance a set). I'm CO w/ 9h 7h and cover.

Pre-flop
I raise to $2 first in, button calls and SB calls.

Flop ($6:50): 5h 7c 8d (3 players)

SB checks, I bet $5, villian min-raises to $10, SB folds, I call.

Turn ($26): 9c (2 players)

I bet $15, he pushes for another $23, I call.

Thoughts?

[wslee00]

#1 - you shouldn't be raising 9 7 suited from early position. maybe you can justify a late position raise, but at .25-.50, that's very debatable

#2 - Betting on the flop was fine, but his raise should have given you some caution. You have to either put him on an A 8 or on a 6. What did you put him on here? Since he called a $2 raise, at this point I put him on an overpair, 66, or maybe even 6 7 suited.

#3 - Based on your read, you probably should fold to the minraise, but betting out again on the turn was ridiculous - he probably has you beat when that 9 hit - ESP after he raised you all-in... just wondering - what did you put him on when you called him?

[jkkkk]

Don't understand why you called the flop.

He could have 55, 66, 77, 88, 99 all of which, beat you. On the other hand he could have 10's or J's.

At 50nl, home of the nut peddler, I gotta say your drawing to 4 outs here, I fold.

[kongo_totte]

[ QUOTE ]
#1 - you shouldn't be raising 9 7 suited from early position. maybe you can justify a late position raise, but at .25-.50, that's very debatable

[/ QUOTE ]

I was in LP, CO=the seat to the right of the button

[ QUOTE ]


#2 - Betting on the flop was fine, but his raise should have given you some caution. You have to either put him on an A 8 or on a 6. What did you put him on here? Since he called a $2 raise, at this point I put him on an overpair, 66, or maybe even 6 7 suited.

[/ QUOTE ]

I put him on an over pair testing his waters, perhaps AA-KK misplayed. Maybe a set, but not likely. I figuered I had 9 outs. Didn't know if he'd pay me off though. The calling of hios raise is the part I'm most unsure of.

[ QUOTE ]
#3 - Based on your read, you probably should fold to the minraise, but betting out again on the turn was ridiculous - he probably has you beat when that 9 hit - ESP after he raised you all-in... just wondering - what did you put him on when you called him?

[/ QUOTE ]

I hoped for a misplayed over pair. I don't see how that 9 could have helped him.

[djoyce003]

how can you put him on an overpair. All he's done is call a preflop raise, and then minraise a fairly coordinated flop. He could have 66 here. He could have J 10, people LOVE playing j 10. Remember, 2 pair is only the third best hand. I find it interesting how you put him on exactly the only hand you are ahead of. It is generally a better practice to put your opponent on a RANGE of hands. I'd say 10 9 is likely, j 10, 66, 67, 56, 78, 89, 1010 - JJ, all are relatively likely. If he has QQ-AA then he deserves to lose. Of these you are ahead in some, drawing to 4 outs in others....classic slightly ahead/way behind it looks like to me. I don't like leading for 15, but you might as well call once he pushes and pray like hell he has 10 10, or JJ and the river doesn't pair one of the cards you don't have.

[Godfather80]

[ QUOTE ]
#1 - you shouldn't be raising 9 7 suited from early position. maybe you can justify a late position raise, but at .25-.50, that's very debatable

#2 - Betting on the flop was fine, but his raise should have given you some caution. You have to either put him on an A 8 or on a 6. What did you put him on here? Since he called a $2 raise, at this point I put him on an overpair, 66, or maybe even 6 7 suited.

#3 - Based on your read, you probably should fold to the minraise, but betting out again on the turn was ridiculous - he probably has you beat when that 9 hit - ESP after he raised you all-in... just wondering - what did you put him on when you called him?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. He wasn't playing from EP. He was in the CO (aka one off the button).
2. Your hand reads are difficult to understand. I'd say that villain could have anything from a set to an overpair here including some straight draws. I'm not sure why you "have to either put him on A8 or A6" from his flop min-raise.
3.Betting on the turn was certainly ridiculous. It is hard to even justify calling the flop min-raise without a great read on villain.

[djoyce003]

[ QUOTE ]


I hoped for a misplayed over pair. I don't see how that 9 could have helped him.

[/ QUOTE ]

For what it's worth, he played 66 the exact same way I would here against a preflop raiser. I'd assume first missed overcards on that flop, and it's a really good flop for 66. I'd raise thinking I was most likely ahead with room to improve on top of that. I think he didn't raise enough on the flop regardless of what he had though. I would have raised a lot more than him.

[kongo_totte]

It looks like the general opinion is; yes, I am a fish. Looking back at it, I realize it was quite foolishly done putting him on an over pair. When I played it though, I had this weird feeling he had an over pair.

Anyway, he showed T T and MHIG.

[amoeba]

the only hands I would be modestly worried about is 89 or flopped set.

I just don't think party50 plays 66 this way with a flop check minraise.


if I was headsup with position, this is one of the few flops I might check behind on.

[swolfe]

why wouldn't you put him on a set?

if i decided that i was going to play this for my stack, i'd have check-pushed the turn. at least get a little fold equity...

[wslee00]

oops - sorry - he was in LP

and i don't know why i said A8 - can't really put him on that for a raise

[djoyce003]

well you played it fishy but he played it far far worse.

[jonnyUCB]

Calling his flop raise is debatable. Just depends of your read of the situation/villian (how often will he do this with just one pair? - some villians like the min-raise as an info-gainer with position).

Probably a matter of style here, but when I hit the flop good but not great, I like to lead small (like 2 into the 5 pot). You dont want to get blown away by a huge raise when you have a draw you would like to see through. I think youre paying too much to see the turn card as played.

[Cased Heel]

Don't fold 3 orbits in a row just to open-raise 4xbb with 7h9h.

This makes you a fish, yes.

Remember, suited connectors don't have as much value against few opponents. Don't play 79h like a limit hand here! It's COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. If you're trying to steal, that's one thing. But please don't raise this in the cutoff anymore. Just don't do it.

I'd rather open-raise K2s in first position at a 6-handed table than 79s in the cutoff.

[kongo_totte]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't fold 3 orbits in a row just to open-raise 4xbb with 7h9h.

This makes you a fish, yes.

Remember, suited connectors don't have as much value against few opponents. Don't play 79h like a limit hand here! It's COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. If you're trying to steal, that's one thing. But please don't raise this in the cutoff anymore. Just don't do it.

I'd rather open-raise K2s in first position at a 6-handed table than 79s in the cutoff.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree.

[Cased Heel]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't fold 3 orbits in a row just to open-raise 4xbb with 7h9h.

This makes you a fish, yes.

Remember, suited connectors don't have as much value against few opponents. Don't play 79h like a limit hand here! It's COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. If you're trying to steal, that's one thing. But please don't raise this in the cutoff anymore. Just don't do it.

I'd rather open-raise K2s in first position at a 6-handed table than 79s in the cutoff.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

With what? Please explain.

[kongo_totte]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't fold 3 orbits in a row just to open-raise 4xbb with 7h9h.

This makes you a fish, yes.

Remember, suited connectors don't have as much value against few opponents. Don't play 79h like a limit hand here! It's COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. If you're trying to steal, that's one thing. But please don't raise this in the cutoff anymore. Just don't do it.

I'd rather open-raise K2s in first position at a 6-handed table than 79s in the cutoff.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

With what? Please explain.

[/ QUOTE ]

That open raising 9 7s in the CO occasionally is a bad idea.

Basically,. I don't agree with anything in your post. I, and from what I read on this board alot of other players, sometimes raise suited gappers in LP, especially when there are few to non limpers (improves the chance of picking up the blinds) If I only raise high PP:s and AK-AJ I'll be very easy to read. And yes, my pre-flop raise is meant as a steal, but that didn't work, so I'll have to take it from there.

If there is one thing in this hand that makes me a fish it's the flop call, not the pre-flop raise.

And basically I don't see why my play would be more suited in limit. Suited connectors and gappers are in my experience better NL hands than Limit.

EDIT: one more thing. I think the fact that I hade folded three orbits in the row should make me more likely to raise a hand like this pre-flop since my tight image should make them put me on a better hand.

[joecacti]

[ QUOTE ]

EDIT: one more thing. I think the fact that I had folded three orbits in the row should make me more likely to raise a hand like this pre-flop since my tight image should make them put me on a better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, now you've projected that you have a better hand. Now imagine that you're the villian, he puts you on a premium hand, and the way you're betting it, something like TT-AA. What does he have that he's pushing with?

I don't think it's necessarily a bad play pre-flop. But out of position, you'll start to wonder if he's pushing you around. Your ego might get involved and demand that you call. Just release all of those decisions pre-flop. Maybe just limp in?

[kongo_totte]

How on earth can limping a suited gapper first in in the CO be better than raising?

Also, the fact that he had to put me on an over pair post flop was one of the reasons I played it like I did. But still, I'm very uncertain if I played it right post-flop or not.

[joecacti]

[ QUOTE ]
How on earth can limping a suited gapper first in in the CO be better than raising?

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends upon your motivations. Raising with suited one gappers, your motivations were to 1) Steal the Blinds, and barring that, 2) hit a str8 and/or flush draw. Good strategy, either you take it down preflop or get a decent draw. In this case, you failed to get away postflop with TPPK.

Now, my motivations limping with one gappers are: 1) Information. I am the first to act, and I can get at least some sort of info (SB minraises, etc), and have a chance to fold cards that could be at best behind, and at worst dominated. 2) It's a drawing hand, and I want more people in the pot when I'm drawing so that someone will be left when I hit. I'm a little fuzzy on number 2, anyone care to elaborate?

That's how I see suited one gappers. Caveat: I understand your play and might even take the same line; I'm just being critical here for discussion purposes. Good Luck.

[Cased Heel]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't fold 3 orbits in a row just to open-raise 4xbb with 7h9h.

This makes you a fish, yes.

Remember, suited connectors don't have as much value against few opponents. Don't play 79h like a limit hand here! It's COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. If you're trying to steal, that's one thing. But please don't raise this in the cutoff anymore. Just don't do it.

I'd rather open-raise K2s in first position at a 6-handed table than 79s in the cutoff.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

With what? Please explain.

[/ QUOTE ]

That open raising 9 7s in the CO occasionally is a bad idea.

Basically,. I don't agree with anything in your post. I, and from what I read on this board alot of other players, sometimes raise suited gappers in LP, especially when there are few to non limpers (improves the chance of picking up the blinds) If I only raise high PP:s and AK-AJ I'll be very easy to read. And yes, my pre-flop raise is meant as a steal, but that didn't work, so I'll have to take it from there.

If there is one thing in this hand that makes me a fish it's the flop call, not the pre-flop raise.

And basically I don't see why my play would be more suited in limit. Suited connectors and gappers are in my experience better NL hands than Limit.

EDIT: one more thing. I think the fact that I hade folded three orbits in the row should make me more likely to raise a hand like this pre-flop since my tight image should make them put me on a better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You aren't Gus Hansen, and this isn't the 4k/8k game. Raising in the CO with this holding is ok once in a while when you know how to play it post-flop.

Key error: You are giving your low-limit foes much more credit than they deserve. Nobody cares that you've folded 3 orbits in a row. They probably don't even notice.

Key error #2: Don't be afraid to lay down a steal-gone-wrong. You do not have to keep investing in this hand.

The only people who would honestly claim that suited connectors play better in NL are those who are masters post-flop. You clearly are not. They are stonger in limit b/c your opponents have little opportunity to outplay you off the hand, as he/she did in this NL hand.

Please let me know if I'm wrong, and that your line with 97suited here was correct. I need to know before I resume playing poker for money, because if I'm wrong then I better stop before I lose money.

If you are playing 4k/8k and had folded 3 orbits, raising here with 97suited is 100 times better than at a low-limit online table.

[kongo_totte]

[ QUOTE ]
They are stonger in limit b/c your opponents have little opportunity to outplay you off the hand, as he/she did in this NL hand?



[/ QUOTE ]

I still disagree with alot in your post, but can you please explain how main opp. outplayed me in this hand? I may very well have botched this post flop, but facts are: I called a min.raise on the flop with 9 clean outs and got payed off big time. Even if I played this hand badly, villian played it much much worse.

[punter11235]

I would fold to minraise.
ALso I fold to push.

I dont see what you hope to beat here.

Best wishes

[Cased Heel]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They are stonger in limit b/c your opponents have little opportunity to outplay you off the hand, as he/she did in this NL hand?



[/ QUOTE ]

I still disagree with alot in your post, but can you please explain how main opp. outplayed me in this hand? I may very well have botched this post flop, but facts are: I called a min.raise on the flop with 9 clean outs and got payed off big time. Even if I played this hand badly, villian played it much much worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just read the results, I guess he didn't outplay you considering you won the hand. Your 9 outs weren't clean though.

Just remember you don't have to get involved in nominal hands in cash games. I just despise this whole hand and how it was played but that's my style. I lay down overpairs and sets all the time! And somehow I make a ton of money at this level. At this level you can really just wait for good hands and bet them for value as they will get called down. There's nothing worse than losing with a set to a flush and with 2 pairs to a straight, etc. I know I'll have to alter my game when I move up but for now, it works. Congrats on winning the hand. Lucky you you caught a 9. Good job. He was ahead of you pre-flop and after 3 of the 5 community cards. Nicely done. By the way, what was the river card? because if it was a ten, or it paired the board other than 7 and 9, then he wins. But you realize that..