KQo hand

[Nfinity]

This is villan's second hand at the table, so no reads, but I'll give you the play by play.
The converter is being Screwy as well so I have to fill in the blanks.

Party Poker (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font> SB Raises, Hero 3-bets, SB Calls.

I don't know this guy from Adam, but he can't be too passive or he would call here most of the time, even with a big pair he might go for a slow play. I certainly don't wanna give him credit for a hand that beats me just yet, so I went the aggressive route and 3-bet.

Flop: J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>(6 small bets)
SB checks, Hero Bets, SB Raises, Hero 3-bets, SB Caps, Hero Calls.

That CR was unexpectected, but I seriously still thought I had the best hand. When he capped the Flop I start thinking what likely beats me here. If the guy is capping flops when he makes Trips I want to know about it, because this is a very uncommon move. If he is capable of Checkraising and Capping here with second or third pair it would be beneficial to know that as well. Villan's range of hands is deep. My instincts tell me that he has probably just flopped 2 pair, but I want the read. I'm resigning myself to a call-down, and brace myself for a loss.

Turn: A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>(7 Big Bets)
SB Bets, Hero Calls .

Yepperoo....
River: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>(9 Big Bets)
SB bets, Hero Raises, SB Calls.

This was interesting. A few of the hands that beat me before, now don't.(yeah I came up with that by myself) Not to mention I don't really see a 3-bet coming from anywhere, so I decided to sneak a value raise in.

Final Pot:(12.25 after rake)

Thoughts? Opinions?

[DeathDonkey]

Beautiful river raise, I don't think I would have done that but I love it. Nice hand.

-DeathDonkey

[jrz1972]

The kinds of blind vs. blind pissing contests are always hard to get a read on.

Against an unknown, I probably do not 3-bet the flop and I definitely do not raise the river. I just want to show my hand down without spewing if villain actually has the sort of hand he's representing.

[MrWookie47]

I like your play. I think your river raise is much better than the one in the hand I posted. There are far fewer hands that he'd play in this manner that you lose to. You only really have to be worried about 88, and the remote AKo that he's too timid to cap preflop.

[Hojglad]

Nothing says "Flopped two pair no g00t" like that river raise. Out of curiousity, what is your plan if he three bets?

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
You only really have to be worried about 88, and the remote AKo that he's too timid to cap preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he has AK then you've got a new friend. This river raise is simply brilliant. It's these sort of skills that you need to move up levels succesfully.

[gharp]

[ QUOTE ]
Not to mention I don't really see a 3-bet coming from anywhere

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm going to ask the same question I asked in Wookie's thread -- what are you going to do if you do get 3-bet?

Given his preflop call of your raise, AK seems unlikely. But if he doesn't have an A in his hand, is he likely to lead out on the river...or call your raise?

[McGahee]

I think this is outstanding.
I don't understand why everyone's so fixated on "what if he 3-bet" either. If he 3-bets we're probably beat and we call. It's still a good raise because we're ahead more often than not, and he's never on a complete bluff plus he could very well think you're on a bluff so he'll call this with anything.

[Nfinity]

[ QUOTE ]
I like your play. I think your river raise is much better than the one in the hand I posted. There are far fewer hands that he'd play in this manner that you lose to. You only really have to be worried about 88, and the remote AKo that he's too timid to cap preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm at the point in my development where I'm starting to look for those situations to push the slightly +EV envelope, especially while multi-tabling.

On this particular River I'm getting 3-bet by 88, JJ, KK(gh sir.) AJ, AK.
Edit: TQ too, I guess.

That's 5 hands, some of which are increasingly unlikely due to the contents of the board and my hand(AJ, AK, KK)

We also have a few hands that I happened to lucksack into beating. The flopped 2 pairs. I certainly gain value in a River raise against them.

Then there are the plethora of hands that villan overplayed that I beat the whole time, and in fact have lost value by resigning to call down on the turn and River. The river raise gets back a little value that I may have lost on the Turn against these hands.

Is this line of thinking wrong? I don't think so, but if I am you guys are the one's to tell me.

BTW Wook, I think your River CR against 3 players has just about as much value in it, given that there is somebodies dead money in the pot. Of course I could be wrong there too.

[gharp]

[ QUOTE ]
Then there are the plethora of hands that villan overplayed that I beat the whole time

[/ QUOTE ]
The only hand I can see that he overplayed on the flop is some naked A or AQ. If he had one of those, then you're screwed. Is there really a plethora of hands that he's just raising like crazy on the flop? This is the guy's second hand at the table, right? You have no reason to believe he's going nuts with nothing here.

The more I think about it the less I like this river raise (though I seem to be the only one). It seems to me like you're giving him credit for playing rationally all along by reading him to a pretty precise range of hands, then thinking he'll still call your river raise with one of those hands when he knows he's losing to any A.

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Then there are the plethora of hands that villan overplayed that I beat the whole time

[/ QUOTE ]
The only hand I can see that he overplayed on the flop is some naked A or AQ. If he had one of those, then you're screwed. Is there really a plethora of hands that he's just raising like crazy on the flop? This is the guy's second hand at the table, right? You have no reason to believe he's going nuts with nothing here.

The more I think about it the less I like this river raise (though I seem to be the only one). It seems to me like you're giving him credit for playing rationally all along by reading him to a pretty precise range of hands, then thinking he'll still call your river raise with one of those hands when he knows he's losing to any A.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, there's no way he's folding here with any pair. If you're villian do you believe hero has an A? Hell no, he would've raised the turn, right? If anything it looks like a bluff on hero's part.
Furthermore, very few players will C/R a set on the flop, especially HU. Sometimes he might have an A, but more often he either flopped K's up or he overplayed a weak K. Either way he's calling.
BTW - if we thought he was "going nuts with nothing" on the flop that would be a reason NOT to raise. You're right he's not C/R'ing and capping on a complete bluff - even more reason to raise.

[MrWookie47]

I think my check/raise is much more marginal than this. There are more hands that he could have that beat me than here. The only hand a reasonable player would have that beat you is 88. Everything else wouldn't have capped the flop, or would have capped preflop, and that's further compouded, as you say, by the contents of the board. In my hand, there are more sets available that he could be raising, and he might have a straight.

This raise is pretty clear, but requires some good hand reading and some cajones. I'm not entirely sure if I'm ahead quite often enough to raise.

[Marquis]

Standard.

Just kidding. Nice hand. Good job reading the board and your opponent's hand. Top two pair and top kicker certainly look good. Very good chance a set would wait until the turn to checkraise, and if he had AK, oh well. But you have to put him on two pair based on the flop action.

[deception5]

One small point, AA is another remote possibility (only 1 combination). If you're including KK in the range you'd have to add AA also (just as likely).

Another possibility is QTs, but given the flop action it seems rather remote particularly since it's a rainbow flop - most players wouldn't cap with it (but would if they had a straight + flush draw).

[Nfinity]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to ask the same question I asked in Wookie's thread -- what are you going to do if you do get 3-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Call, muck my cards, tell him what a great player he is.

Get my reads and make the rest of his stay at my table very unpleasant.

[ QUOTE ]
The only hand I can see that he overplayed on the flop is some naked A or AQ. If he had one of those, then you're screwed. Is there really a plethora of hands that he's just raising like crazy on the flop? This is the guy's second hand at the table, right? You have no reason to believe he's going nuts with nothing here.


[/ QUOTE ]

I certainly do have a reason to think he is going nuts with nothing. I'm at a .50/1 6 max table.

think about these hands: QQ, TT, 99,(Pair and gutshot vs.1 opponent is easily cappable if he's Laggy)

J9, TJ, KT etc. At these limits anything with straight potential gives these guys seizures.

Kx, yeah I can definently see it...

That's a lot of hands. Anything less than that and you better have a read, or else your just giving your opponents too much credit.

[gharp]

Well I seem to be alone on this one -- I think you're behind often enough here to make this raise pretty thin when calling gets you a showdown, especially since you're inclined to call after a 3-bet b/c of the big pot.

I will say, though, that the thought process going into this whole hand is really good -- these are the types of hands that make reading this forum a lot of fun. Nice post. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[davelin]

Nice hand bro. The 6max table and the blind-vs-blind confrontation gives him a decently wide range of hands that he could play this way, a good number of them you just torched with that river.