thoughts about earnings per hour online

[bernie]

i was wondering what some think of this...

it's been well stated that a great earning per hour in a live game is 2 BB....even 1 BB is pretty good....

what would actually be good for online games? the reason i ask, is i see many posts along these lines...

'i win 3BB an hour playing 2 tables. sounds a little high but....'

it really doesnt sound that high when compared to live games...

let's say it's a decent, typical game. good mix of players...say a good rate for this in a live game would be...1-1.75BB per hour....

if this were online, same player makeup (limit doesnt matter, let's say it's the exact same players online that one saw at a live table)...given the # of hands per hour....say you can play 2.5 times more hands on one table...so playing 2 tables youd be playing 5 times the hands....shouldnt your win rate then be about 5 times what a live game would be?

in actuality, 3BB per hour on 2 tables online would be about .6BB per hour....which is beating the game, but not by much...though it 'sounds' high in comparison to live games, when it really isnt.

so my question is, given the volume of hands per hour online, shouldnt a player beating a game live game for 1BB an hour, be able to beat 2 tables online of 'similar' lineup, again, SIMILAR lineup, for close to 5BB an hour? the win rate, per hand, should be parrallel.

are some of these online players fooling themselves thinking that 3BB an hour on 2 or 3 tables is a real great win rate in comparison?

ive breached this subject before, but not sure if i ever asked it this directly.

comments and thoughts are welcome...

b

[Pokerstuff]

well, in a good game online, you should get about 65 hands per hour at each table. The average live good game is 35-40 hands per hour. Few live pros make over 1 BB per hour in games such as 15-30. Online I still average about 1BB per hour per table. I get more hands in online, but some of the skills I have in live games is diminished.

Playing short-handed I do very well, but that is a different game to rate altogether. Despite the 1.5-2 time the hands, I make just barely over 1 BB per table hour. I often play 4 tables, so my earn is actually much better than live overall.

[Bob T.]

The problem is, that you are not facing the same lineup online, as you are in a B@M cardroom.

Lets pretend for a second that you were facing a similar lineup. You are playing 2-4 holdem, and you can usually beat a live 2-4 game for about $6 per hour, or about $6 per 35 hands. If you had the same lineup online, you could average about twice that or $12 per hour. Additionally, you could play two tables at one time, and double that again. Now you are making $24 dollars an hour, playing 2-4 holdem.

If you look out in the real world, there are probably a lot of struggling 10-20 and 15-30 players who are trying to be pros, but aren't quite making $24 per hour. They probably do have the talent to beat your little 2-4 game for $6 an hour, and they could use the $24 an hour that they could get by playing two tables online.

Start populating that 2-4 online game with a couple of those characters, and all of a sudden it gets a lot tougher to make even $6 an hour playing 2-4 holdem online.

Ever notice that in your cardroom, every 4-8 game has at least an average of %50 seeing the flop, and if you look at .50/1.00 on paradise, you don't see many games where even %40 see each flop. Some of those players in that game, are probably very good players, writing emails, or playing computer games, and augmenting their income by a couple of bucks an hour.

So many players wonder why they can't beat online games, and the answer is really quite simple. The speed of the games, and the ability to play multiple tables, makes low limit online games attractive to some quite talented players.

There is an upside to this also. You play 2-4 or 3-6 online, and if you can learn to survive there, you probably have a taste for the tactics that it will take to survive in those 10-20 or 15-30 games that you might want to play in someday. The education that you get in those tactics, is probably going to be a lot cheaper at 2-4 online, then it is in a live 10-20 game, but the lessons you've learned might be just as valuable.

[bernie]

1st ill thank you bob for a nice, thought out response...i appreciate it...

but i was trying to make a point, ignoring the limits and comparing them between live and online. that wasnt the point at all....

yes, i know, in general, that a 3-6 live game is easier than 3-6 online....that wasnt the question

im just talking BB per hour....that's it.

against the same type of lineup that is playing the same way regardless of the limit...

if it helps, say your beating these guys for 1.5BB in a 4-8 game after 10,000 hands then see the 'exact' same guys playing the same way in an online .5-1 game.......ignoring the limit, if the game is dealing twice as many hands, in 10,000 hands your win rate PER BIG BLINDS won, NOT money won, should be the same. except that your hourly rate will appear higher. when in reality youre not beating them any more than you are in a live game....hence, an inflated BB per hour rate for online play.

the only way TO compare 'like' situations like this, is to factor in hands per hour. not just 'hourly' rate...since generally comparing hourly rates between online and live is apples and oranges.

the point was to online players who may be thinking that their win rates are much higher than they should be. when in fact, they may be right. but one could be barely beating an online game, yet think theyre better than they are based on 'hourly' rate in comparison to live games....

again 2BB an hour on 2 tables online, is much less than 2BB an hour in a live game....(regardless of limit)

basically presenting a more realistic way of seeing online win rates

b

[Flopped]

bernie,

ya, you are right. These guys are dense.

'rate PER BIG BLINDS'

Normally BB stands for Big bet, which is twice as big as the big blind. This problem crops up with shortforms here and there. But you knew that, right?

See ya.

[bernie]

youre right... i meant BIG BETS...

but in actuality, it can still be the same unit of measurement since it is parralell....

just youll have more big blinds per hour than big bets... /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

thanks for the catch...was tired when i wrote it...

b

[Bob T.]

Sorry bernie,

I tried to respond your question, but I got sidetracked. What I was trying to say is, that because of the economics of the situation, whether you are playing live, or online, you still need to play well to win 1 BB per hour. Even though you get twice as many hands in per hour, you have to play against tougher competition online so that in the end, your online rate should be lower per hand, than your live rate. On the other hand, you are correct, when you say that your hourly rate in terms of BB/hour could be inflated bacause you can play so many more hands per hour, especially if you play multiple tables.

[thequietone]

Bernie,
Here is another consideration. Let's suppose that you can beat an on-line game for 2bb/hr. Even for an excellent player it would seem near impossible to play as well at 2 games simultaneously, as you will miss some of the information about other players which you would normally catch. Let's say that playing at 2 tables lowers your win rate to 1.5bb/hr per table. It makes sense to do because you are now winning 3 bb/hr overall instead of 2, but your win rate per table is not as gaudy.

[bernie]

its much easier to keep track of 2 tables online, than it ever would be in a live situation....there's not as much info to process.

couple that with stat king, which does the 'watching' for you, if you have it, and gaining info online is even easier....

3 tables, ive found, can get a little hectic...but 2, really isnt that bad...


but yes, you may miss some....

b

[SoBeDude]

Please, what is Stat King? and what sites does it work with?

Also, to respond to your original post:

I completely see your point about win rate needing to be based on hands-per-hour.

Lets take my B&M 10-20 game. Its pretty slow (geezers) and we're lucky to get 40 hands/hour. Lets say I beat it for 2 BB/hour (I wish).

Broken down to a per-hand basis, I'm making $40 bucks in 40 hands, or $1 per hand. sweet.

Now lets say I play online in a 10-20 game and do "equally" well...I still win 2 BBs/hour, but the table plays at about 75 hands per hour.

Now I'm making the same $40, but over 75 hands, for an average of $0.53 per hand.

Now its clear I'm actually doing MUCH worse online on a per-hand win-rate.

And I think this is actually somewhat reasonable because I feel the level of competition on line is much tougher than what I personally experience live.

In my live games there are many players who are somewhat wealthy/comfortable and love to play poker. Also their wives are pumping the slots so poker gives them something fun to do.

IMO, in an online 5-10 or above game, its the people who love poker and know how to play at the table with you. Not bored grandpa who lives a few blocks away.

-Scott

[XlgJoe]

Bernie

I think many people convert their BB/hr(online rate) to a live rate ahead of time berfore reporting it. I've read many of times people asking how many games per hour there is in an average live game, so that they can figure their BB/hr.

[Bob T.]

Please, what is Stat King? and what sites does it work with?


I think bernie meant pokerstat. Pokerstat currently works on paradise, but the developer is working on versions for Pokerstars, and party poker. It is available from thsoftware.

Statking, is available from conjelco, and tracks your session results.

[Net Warrior]

As Holden Caufield used to say, sometimes the digressions are the most interesting part of a topic. (smlie) No offence bernie. The idea that good $10-20 players are playing $2-4 on line really hits home. I play a lot of $1-2 on line and have been slowly building up a good sized bankroll over a year or so. I run into the usual setbacks but because there are lots of loose players around I get it back before too long and continue to build. (Sorry I don't keep track of my hourly rate) But whenever I move up to $2-4 I notice that the table may be good for a while and then a fish or two leaves and all of a sudden I can't notice anyone making mistakes. So now I'll watch even closer to see what I can learn from these guys.

[ResidentParanoid]

In *loose* games, both online and live, my experience is that 0.05 BB (big blind) per hand is my long run expected earn rate.

Live at 30 hands per hour, that's 1.5 BB/hour.

Online at 50 hands per hour, that's 2.5 BB/hour.

That includes up to 3 tables online, and up to 1 table (!) live. It's important to note that table selection here is important: tight tables obviously play more hands per hour and more than likely at less BB per hand.

This online and live experience is at essentially the same type of table with the same lineup. Mostly passive, loose tables. 90% of the time, you need a hand at a showdown to win. Other than the number of hands per hour, the games play essentially the same.

So getting at your question, bernie, at first I thought that online games were so much easier to make money on. After working out the numbers, it's clear that hands per hour and being able to be picky about table choices makes online play nice, but otherwise the games play similar to live, at least at loose tables.