1/2 6-max hand from last night

[Ghazban]

The table is full but two people are sitting out so we're four handed. I've only been here 12 hands and villain's only been here for 3. I've never seen him before.

PF:
Villain (~$85 behind) limps UTG, I have him covered and raise to $8 with T /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, villain is the only caller

Flop: 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif ($19 less rake)

He checks, I bet $14, he calls

Turn: 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif ($47 less rake)

Villain pushes

[Go_Blue88]

i think you're behind here; i fold.

[jkkkk]

Wow, what a spot to bluff in, I probably still fold though.

[TheWorstPlayer]

I don't like folding overpairs 4 handed in general. Unless I have a good reason to believe that this guy is tight, his line looks way too weird to get me to fold. Did he have 96 for the weird OESD which just hit? Possibly. Did he just hit some weird two pair? Possibly. More likely he is making a move, pushing a draw or one pair, though. I'm very tempted to call. I'd say against complete unknown, I'm probably calling. If I have a read that this guy may be tighter than average, I'm probably laying down. Weird line, though, no matter what he has.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like folding overpairs 4 handed in general. Unless I have a good reason to believe that this guy is tight, his line looks way too weird to get me to fold. Did he have 96 for the weird OESD which just hit? Possibly. Did he just hit some weird two pair? Possibly. More likely he is making a move, pushing a draw or one pair, though. I'm very tempted to call. I'd say against complete unknown, I'm probably calling. If I have a read that this guy may be tighter than average, I'm probably laying down. Weird line, though, no matter what he has.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is almost verbatim what went through my head at the time.... eerie.

[unlucky513]

i'd call and pray for something like A6/club draw/top pair. i hate folding this 4 handed.

[Go_Blue88]

I see Villian's line as he called the flop with a monster (2 pair or trips) hoping to slow play. Then the turn card freaked him out a little and as a result, he overplayed his hand fearing the river card.

[Maulik]

6-max tables 4 handed no less is not the time to think about the player being tricky and such or all the permutations of hands that are ahead of yours. i'd call and assume i'm ahead

[TheWorstPlayer]

Why wouldn't he c/r if he had a strong hand on the flop? It's a draw heavy board so he should a)protect and b)get plenty of action from someone fearing a semi-bluff. No?

[Go_Blue88]

[ QUOTE ]
Why wouldn't he c/r if he had a strong hand on the flop? It's a draw heavy board so he should a)protect and b)get plenty of action from someone fearing a semi-bluff. No?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think 4 handed people tend to worry less about draws on the flop. He may have been planning the big c/r on the turn assuming no club fell.

[djoyce003]

[ QUOTE ]
Why wouldn't he c/r if he had a strong hand on the flop? It's a draw heavy board so he should a)protect and b)get plenty of action from someone fearing a semi-bluff. No?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't see that as a draw heavy board against a preflop raiser. Against a caller yes, raiser, no.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why wouldn't he c/r if he had a strong hand on the flop? It's a draw heavy board so he should a)protect and b)get plenty of action from someone fearing a semi-bluff. No?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't see that as a draw heavy board against a preflop raiser. Against a caller yes, raiser, no.

[/ QUOTE ]
Part of the reason to raise the flop is to get action before draws hit which will shut your opponent down. Also, preflop raisers can have flush draws here. Sure, it's unlikely, but it can happen, right? Just as likely as a caller having a flush draw.

[Go_Blue88]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why wouldn't he c/r if he had a strong hand on the flop? It's a draw heavy board so he should a)protect and b)get plenty of action from someone fearing a semi-bluff. No?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't see that as a draw heavy board against a preflop raiser. Against a caller yes, raiser, no.

[/ QUOTE ]
Part of the reason to raise the flop is to get action before draws hit which will shut your opponent down. Also, preflop raisers can have flush draws here. Sure, it's unlikely, but it can happen, right? Just as likely as a caller having a flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

If i was villian in this hand (and i had a big hand like i think he does), i wouldn't be worried about a club falling b/c my opponent could be on a flush draw; i'd be worried b/c it could kill my action. but i think it's worth it to take that risk sometimes in the hopes of getting paid off big w/ a c/r on the turn.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why wouldn't he c/r if he had a strong hand on the flop? It's a draw heavy board so he should a)protect and b)get plenty of action from someone fearing a semi-bluff. No?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't see that as a draw heavy board against a preflop raiser. Against a caller yes, raiser, no.

[/ QUOTE ]
Part of the reason to raise the flop is to get action before draws hit which will shut your opponent down. Also, preflop raisers can have flush draws here. Sure, it's unlikely, but it can happen, right? Just as likely as a caller having a flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

If i was villian in this hand (and i had a big hand like i think he does), i wouldn't be worried about a club falling b/c my opponent could be on a flush draw; i'd be worried b/c it could kill my action. but i think it's worth it to take that risk sometimes in the hopes of getting paid off big w/ a c/r on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
c/c flop, c/r turn is so not a good line. too often the turn gets checked through. of course that doesn't mean that isn't what villain was doing. but if that was his plan, why did he open push the turn?

[Go_Blue88]

[/ QUOTE ]
c/c flop, c/r turn is so not a good line. too often the turn gets checked through. of course that doesn't mean that isn't what villain was doing. but if that was his plan, why did he open push the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

First, i don't think it's a bad line sometimes b/c it's so unexpected; it confuses opponents (many others may disagree with this). Second, i said earlier that i think he pushed the turn b/c the card freaked him out and he feared the river card (maybe b/c he thought it'd kill his action, or maybe b/c he thought it'd beat him), so he wanted to get it in on the turn. I've seen people do this a lot. Ha watch me be wrong and then no one will agree w/ me.

[Ghazban]

Based on the line of thinking from TWP's first post, I ended up calling after some thought. Villain had A /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif for the turned OESD and nut flush draw blocker. River bricks and MHIG.

What do you think about villain's turn openpush shorthanded? The ace of clubs in his hand makes it less likely that I had raised preflop with big clubs (though, of course, something like KQs is still possible) and the ragged nature of the board makes it unlikely that I had a pair unless I started with one. I think he gets a lot of better hands to fold with this play (any better ace, maybe even a smallish overpair).

[TheWorstPlayer]

I'm not sure. But I think that it is not a good line because it doesn't really confuse anyone. It very clearly says that you have a hand which can beat one pair. So you end up just getting people to fold when they are actually drawing very slim or completely dead. And it often doesn't work because people check the turn through. I think leading the turn is much better since it can induce very bad raises and also prevents the turn from getting completely checked through. And even if Hero called and villain showed crap, I don't think you are wrong. I think villain could be following the thought process you are describing. I'm just trying to point out why I don't think it is a very good thought process. Not saying that he isn't following it, though. He might be.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think about villain's turn openpush shorthanded?

[/ QUOTE ]
Um...I hate it? For exactly the reasons I explained in my other post, I think this is a good spot to c/r a-i on the turn if he wants to make a move here. A)It looks very strong and often gets people to fold. B)It often gets checked through, which would be good for him here since he just picked up a pretty good draw.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What do you think about villain's turn openpush shorthanded?

[/ QUOTE ]
Um...I hate it? For exactly the reasons I explained in my other post, I think this is a good spot to c/r a-i on the turn if he wants to make a move here. A)It looks very strong and often gets people to fold. B)It often gets checked through, which would be good for him here since he just picked up a pretty good draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's $47 in the pot, he has $63 behind. I don't think a checkraise has any folding equity vs. a legitimate hand. If I bet $25-$30 on the turn and he pushes for $33-$38 more, I'm instantly calling. By pushing first in, I actually am faced with a decision. IMO, checkraise semibluffing with a stack this short is retarded.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Didn't remember he was so short. Then just check and call if you're getting >4:1. Check/fold otherwise. And fold preflop. Sure he gave you pause, but really the stack is too short to pull even this move here. If he doesn't have enough to c/r bluff, then just forget the hand. Open pushing is retarded. It caused you to call and it would have caused me to call, too.

[Go_Blue88]

There's $47 in the pot, he has $63 behind. I don't think a checkraise has any folding equity vs. a legitimate hand. If I bet $25-$30 on the turn and he pushes for $33-$38 more, I'm instantly calling. By pushing first in, I actually am faced with a decision. IMO, checkraise semibluffing with a stack this short is retarded.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why i thought it'd be a smart play to occasionally c/r the turn with a monster...but i was wrong, and your analysis makes sense twp.

[jonnyUCB]

so you're saying you'll always ch/r OOP on a draw heavy board vs a PFR with your monsters? I see villian's line as completely viable. Say a club fell off on the turn. Easy pot bet (or push in villian's shoes) with any two pair or set. You want to draw in some money but not get sucked out at the same time.

However, with so short a stack I'd be inclined to ch/r the flop allin or some other such play with a monster. I think leading the turn big is a play for deeper stacks, but see it as a somewhat viable line when we don't want to see the turn checked through on a scary card.

[TheWorstPlayer]

I won't always do anything. But, yes, I will frequently check/raise here with a monster (as well as with a draw) and I will also frequently c/c flop, lead turn with a monster. With a draw, if I'm not c/r flop, I'm probably c/c flop, c/evaluate pot odds on turn. Sometimes maybe lead turn with a draw, but probably rarely.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
I think he gets a lot of better hands to fold with this play (any better ace, maybe even a smallish overpair).

[/ QUOTE ]
He may get some stronger hands to fold, but the possibility of a profitable semi-bluff doesn't justify the $22 he put in with the limp/call with A6o and check-call with ace-high. So, I don't like his line overall. I don't think you need to worry about giving up equity on the turn if you aren't giving up so much that it justifies the previous actions.

From the betting pattern, I expected him to have a set or 66. Perhaps 76 or 86 or 65 or A/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif or T9. So many reasonable hands might semibluff that I think you have an easy call with TPGK or better.

[unlucky513]

[ QUOTE ]
Villain had A /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

man i'm good.