Huge drawing hand -- no idea how to play it.

[jcm4ccc]

I think playing drawing hands is my weakest point. I don't play them consistently, and really am never sure what is the best line to take. Here's a recent one. I'm going to post more as they come around. (sorry, the converter wasn't working)

PP $20 + $2

***** Hand History for Game 2351174130 *****

Seat 1: jcm4ccc (1400)
Seat 4: Veen_150 (775)
Seat 5: DUCKEMJC (1505)
Seat 6: darts02 (200)
Seat 8: diggerjohn (825)
Seat 9: POTILLA (1815)
Seat 10: BeatMyNutz1 (1480)

BeatMyNutz1 posts small blind (25)
jcm4ccc posts big blind (50)

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to jcm4ccc [ Qh, Kh ]
Veen_150 folds.
DUCKEMJC folds.
darts02 folds.
diggerjohn raises (100) to 100
POTILLA calls (100)
BeatMyNutz1 calls (75)
jcm4ccc calls (50)

** Dealing Flop ** : [ 6h, 2h, 8d ]
BeatMyNutz1 checks.
jcm4ccc bets (300)
diggerjohn folds.
POTILLA calls (300)
BeatMyNutz1 calls (300)

** Dealing Turn ** : [ 6c ]
BeatMyNutz1 checks.
jcm4ccc checks.
POTILLA checks.

** Dealing River ** : [ 2c ]
BeatMyNutz1 bets (400)
jcm4ccc folds.
POTILLA calls (400)

** Summary **

POTILLA balance 1015, lost 800 [ Ad Js ] [ two pairs, sixes and twos -- Ad,6h,6c,2h,2c ]
BeatMyNutz1 balance 2780, bet 800, collected 2100, net +1300 [ 8s 8c ] [ a full house, Eights full of sixes -- 8s,8c,8d,6h,6c ]

[durron597]

I like check-call a small bet/raise a big bet on the flop.

[tigerite]

Yep, that would be my line too, no need to lead out here, someone will bet to protect their hand with so many in the pot, you can be sure.

[wiggs73]

I think you played the hand fine. The only thing I might would have done differently is went for a check-raise on the flop. With 2 overs and a flush draw, you're a slight favorite over any pair (smaller than QQ obviously).

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
I like check-call a small bet/raise a big bet on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ] So you'll take a cheap card if they give it, but if there is enough money in the middle to make a steal worthwhile, you'll put all your chips in. Is that the basic idea?

[wiggs73]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like check-call a small bet/raise a big bet on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ] So you'll take a cheap card if they give it, but if there is enough money in the middle to make a steal worthwhile, you'll put all your chips in. Is that the basic idea?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's the idea, and I was assuming a bet of at least half the pot size when I said to check-raise. If they lead out a min-bet or some crap like that, then I think calling is fine. I want the bet to be big enough that I can push over the top of it if I'm check-raising.

[45suited]

C/R all-in looks good to me. Only problem with that here (IMO) is that even though I have a monster draw, I'd rather take the pot down uncontested with this move. (I know, monster draw, but just as soon take a nice pot without crippling myself if I miss.) Any bet by the pre-flop raiser probably pot commits him, and he might feel like he has to put the rest of his chips in with a hand that dominates yours, thus leaving you with just a flush draw.

I'd actually feel better about the C/R all in if pre-flop raiser was deeper stacked. That said, I'd do it anyway. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like check-call a small bet/raise a big bet on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ] So you'll take a cheap card if they give it, but if there is enough money in the middle to make a steal worthwhile, you'll put all your chips in. Is that the basic idea?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. If they are giving me correct pot odds to see 1 card of my draw, then the pot isn't big enough for me to put my whole stack in.

Also usually a hand like a set often wants action and thus the bet is smaller. Whereas a hand like A8 I have more outs against and usually bets bigger to try to take it down.

[tminus]

9/47 cards to help, you had nowhere near the odds to bet or call 300 chips on the flop, you just layed down 25% of your stack

i bet 1/3 to 1/2 pot and see how they react then check-fold turn, draws kill

[Scuba Chuck]

There are three ways I like playing this hand.

1) Check-raise allin if it feels/looks right. For example if villain(s) can laydown with a decent probability.

2) Check call a smallish bet, for example if villain bets t100 (or less) into a t400 pot, with one caller, I might also just call. Over t100, I'm thinking check-raise allin. One of the problems with this line is that you're only going to win what's in the pot (or slightly more) if you improve your draw. Another problem is what will you do if a K hits on the turn. For that, I'm assuming you're check calling for value ??

3) Lead out, but I would lead out with a smaller bet. I like this decision the least here from the BB though.

[tigerite]

How on earth did he know he only had 9/47 cards. You can't put someone on a set every time. Not even close.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
draws kill

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but there are draws and then there are DRAWS. This is a great draw and one that I'd be willing to C/R all-in with. I agree with ScubaChuck here... if you think there's a good chance to get a fold with a C/R all-in, that's what I'd do.

The only thing that would make me hesitant to do this is the relative shortstack of the preflop raiser, who might easily feel pot committed after a continuation bet.

But if I lead the flop, I like leading for less like Chuck says...

[rydazzle]

Yeah, look for the cheap card. I like a steal if you are heads-up or 2 opponents...4 total is too many I think. Plus, youve got bad position for a steal.

[Freudian]

I have found myself being disappointed when everyone folds in hands like this. Then I have to smack myself on the head to remind me that I only had a draw. Me thinks I am mentally overrating draws.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t665)
UTG+1 (t730)
MP1 (t745)
MP2 (t805)
MP3 (t1610)
CO (t1205)
Button (t680)
Hero (t775)
BB (t785)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t57.50) A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t50</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to t100</font>, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero pushes all-in</font>, BB folds, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: t970

[Scuba Chuck]

I think there is a huge difference in these hands. Most glaring is the remaining stacks of your opponents, and the ~200 chips in the pot going to the flop.

That being said, you can't be too dissatisfied to just pick up 200 chips at this stage. If you build the pot too big, they aren't gonna fold (which matters when you don't hit).