Playing middle suited connectors

[SoBeDude]

Say I'm playing online in a typical loose $2-$4 game.

everyone has folded to me, 3 off the button and I have 89S. How do I play?

I'm torn between raising and folding.

If I raise I feel pretty sure I'll get called by someone. do I really want to be heads-up with 89s?

If I won't get enough callers to draw to either the flush or the straight, shouldn't I fold?

Perhaps I should limp in and enourage others to join the hand so if I hit I get paid off?

Input appreciated!

-Scott

[Al_Capone_Junior]

You are probably on the cusp of your decision possibilities. However, if you raise and get called, you're not really in THAT bad shape. So you'll have to fold some of the time, but other times you'll get a flop good enough to call. Remember, if you flop a pair and your lone opponent doesn't, you're quite a bit ahead. Heads up, second or even third pair is much better than it is multiway. Is there anything else you might gain by raising? If you just call, you might get some callers behind you, thus giving you some implied odds to draw to. I wouldn't fold though, so make your choice and just go with it. It ain't the end of the world if you don't win a million dollars with 98s.

al

[JayKon]

Raise, or fold is correct.

If I beleive I can buy the button and play the hand against one of the blinds, definatly raise. Then, if the blind misses his hand, he may very well fold to a flop bet into a small pot 4.5-5 bets $9-$10 in a 2/4. The key is acting last and using the position to apply pressure.

Also, if you hold the same hand, in the same position, only 4 players have already called, you should also consider raising. With the four limpers and you, you will probably pick up at least the BB. Thats 12-1 on the flop and while you may not be last, you will be in late position and almost always checked to.

[RockLobster]

89s needs a lot of opponents, and you want to see the flop cheaply with this hand. I tend to avoid being tricky with hands like this... play them only in LP, and only with several limpers ahead of you and virtually no threat of being raised behind you.

[cybertilt]

Dude I don't play the 2-4 on line where variance probly doesn't help you as much as higher limits, but my game plan is to take one suit each night and use that suit to raise such hands. Against TOMs you got a good chance to buy the blinds and if not you do have outs. If you get to show the hand down, everyone is going to chuckel and veiw you as a loose player-pay back comes later. The key here is don't get tied to the pot and cost yourself some serious money.

[34TheTruth34]

Personally, I fold this hand in this situation almost every single time. It would take real weak-tight players in LP and in the blinds for me to try to steal raise with this hand. These opponents are few and far between at the low limits where the average players call down way too much. And, if the players in the blinds are tricky and/or aggressive, you're going to be played back at, maybe even if they have nothing at all. This is not a desirable situation to be in in a low limit game, where solid, straightforward play is called for.
I think many low limit players lose money over their lifetime in situations like this because they try to bully players who call too much (and always defend their blind). They just bet and bet, and how does the passive, calling station respond? By calling all the way and showing them the winner. High cards are much more important than suited connectors in this spot. BTW, the lowest hand that I would make a steal raise in a position like this would be somewhere around A8, K9, or QT. Put me on the button with everybody folding to me against typical low limit players in the blinds and I would lower the requirements to about any pair, Ace, and hands all the way down to, say, Kxs and Qxs. I would still fold hands like JT and T9s/98s.

How's this for timing? Believe it or not, as I was reading your thread and typing my response, I played the following hand online:

All folded to me 3 off the button, I raise with JJ. Only BB calls. Flop T-6-2. He checks, I bet, he calls. Turn 6. He checks, I bet, he raises, I call. River 4. He bets, I call, he shows K6o and takes it down.

This hand just goes to show exactly what I was saying. Players will defend their blind with almost anything. And if they're tricky, they will use situations like the board pairing a low card to try to bet you off of your hand. That is why I called the hand down, BTW, because this particular opponent is tricky enough to try to represent the 6.

Hope this helped...

[ZManODS]

See i would tend to agree with lobster. I would think you would only want to play them in late position with a few limpers ahead to give you the implied odds to draw too, which you will almost certainly need. Anyone else agree? If not, why?

[Jeff V]

I'm not saying a definate one way or another. But if you do raise, as I probably would against weak players you have a couple of ways to win. Obviously if you hit your flop, or since most weak players will put you on AQ or AK, you can bet flops that contain these cards also. Just know your opponents, and take it from there. Jeff

[Jeff V]

Oh yea it's a 2-4 game. Caveat Emtor. /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Dude:

First notice that if you are three off the button and everyone has folded, the game may not be as loose as you think. If tough players remain, I would fold. But at this limit that is probably unlikely.

If tight players remain, especially if they are in the blinds, I would raise.

If loose players remain, which would be consistent with your description of the game, go ahead and call.

best wishes,
mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Lobster:

What if the remaining players, especially the blinds, tend to be weak loose (which I believe is common at this limit)? Now you could just limp in and get a bunch of opponents with not much chance of being raised. Wouldn't you want to just call in this spot?

best wishes,
Mason

[RockLobster]

Hi Mason--

I'm not surprised that there are skilled players on this forum that would play it as you decribed (calling, in this case). My mantra is to keep things simple, at least until I get more experience under my belt.

If I was pretty sure that there'd be 5 other callers I would certainly consider calling. But my default play is to muck in this situation.

Respectfully--

[davidross]

This game is where I make all my money (so I can donate it back at 5/10), and You have to play this hand . You can raise it or call depending on the situation.

I would raise it if
a) my raises are getting too much respect. I will rarely open limp here so raising keeps my hand disguised. There are so many ways to win with this hand and raising gives you another. Even if you lose with this hand you will get more action later on legitimate raises.
b) I don’t think a limp will get me many opponents.
c) There is a tough player behind me who raises to isolate.

I would limp if
a) I think Raising will not shrink the field.
b) I was pretty certain to get 3 or more callers.

I have played a lot of online 2/4 and this hand in an average 2/4 game is worth playing. I would play T9s to 76s in the same manner.

I do want to point out that while I win at 2/4 I struggle at higher limits and I think hands like this are one of the reasons. Against tough opponents who are likely to 3-bet you or Isolate your limp with a raise you should probably not play this hand. The quality of average opponents at 2/4 is what makes this hand playable.

[Schmed]

I just want to make sure I am understanding why you would fold or call. Do you say fold/call because of the odds you would be getting on a draw?

He said he was 3 off of the button and everyone folded to him. Meaning that if he just calls and everyone else limps in with him then there are 5 players. 10 dollars in the pot. If a favorable flop comes, say 4 to a straight or a flush, wouldn't there be potentially enough money in the pot to stay with 5 players? Is this why calling would be a good way to go? The concept of keeping player in so you have the pot odds for your draws.

Raising was my first thought here because it's the aggressive play that is an attempt to get the pot heads up. Depending on this situation, (is it early in your session? the players you're playing with...yadda yadda), isn't this a good position and a good hand to bluff/advertise your bluff with?

[RockLobster]

I just want to make sure I am understanding why you would fold or call. Do you say fold/call because of the odds you would be getting on a draw?

I would normally fold, but as Mason pointed out, if I could ensure that everyone behind me would call, then calling sounds good.

If a favorable flop comes, say 4 to a straight or a flush, wouldn't there be potentially enough money in the pot to stay with 5 players? Is this why calling would be a good way to go? The concept of keeping player in so you have the pot odds for your draws.

Right on.

Raising was my first thought here because it's the aggressive play that is an attempt to get the pot heads up.

I don't want to be heads-up with this hand. This hand needs help, so there must be money in the pot (in the form of passive callers /forums/images/icons/grin.gif) in order to make this call.

isn't this a good position and a good hand to bluff/advertise your bluff with?

Raising pre-flop would be reckless (imo), and if you're doing this for advertising I s'pose you'll get your point across. /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif

[SoBeDude]

Even in a loose game doesn't mean there are 5 callers every hand. For the tables I play, I think it averages 3-3.5 callers seeing the flop (and thats inline with the numbers paradise shows). With much of the table already folded front of me, I felt that if I limped, I'd get called by maybe one player plus a check from the BB.

So I'm expecting 3-way with medium suiteds. If my read on the table is correct, is a fold the proper play?

I guess I should have put this in the original post.

Thanks to all who responded.