Folding the second nut flush draw?

[ike]

10 handed, Party 30
Converter seems to break on this hand so apologies for my ugly formatting.
Both opponents are very loose and pretty aggressive.
MP limps, I raise JJ in the sb, bb calls, mp calls.
Flop
KQ3, all diamonds, I have the jack of diamonds.
I lead, bb calls, mp raises, I call, BB 3bets, MP caps, I fold?

[DcifrThs]

mp's action preflop doesn't fit with your read...but his flop play does.

getting 7.5:1 here i dont find a fold. sure the Ad is out there at times, but if MP is agressive we can say its leess likely that he has it b/c he didn't raise pf as he likely would w/ almost any ace he'd play (definition f loose agro). the bb is the main problem but why eliminate people (mp) with the Ad draw...while the agro may do that, he can also have one pair hands and straight draws that loose players play on flushed boards...they're loose...and likely over agro and bad.

i call here and expect to have on average at least 5-7 outs (counting jacks, diamonds a good % of the time, bd straight draws et.) and also including the possibility (albeit remote ) that your' good right now.

call and see the turn.
Barron

[ike]

BB's action worried me alot too, looks kinda like a set or KQ. If 2 pair or a set is already out then even if the A of diamonds isn't I still have to face redraws when I hit my flush. I also probably have bad reverse implied odds because theres no reason to expect them to slow down on the turn and I can only get aggressive if the Ad falls and the board is unpaired.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
BB's action worried me alot too, looks kinda like a set or KQ. If 2 pair or a set is already out then even if the A of diamonds isn't I still have to face redraws when I hit my flush. I also probably have bad reverse implied odds because theres no reason to expect them to slow down on the turn and I can only get aggressive if the Ad falls and the board is unpaired.

[/ QUOTE ]

but you're getting very good odds. and you close the action. you dont need to "get aggressive" when you hit as the pot is already big.

-Barron

[pokerhooker]

heh, is it too weak to check-call the flop? /images/graemlins/grin.gif
you're not really afraid of giving free cards...

[Jules22]

if both players are very aggressive its tough to put one of them on the ace of diamonds, and since youre closing the action on the flop i would call. on the turn i would check pretty much any card and gauge the action from there. you definitely play better and way higher than i do, so take this with the grain of salt

ps hi

[ike]

yah, this is should be a call. As it turned out MP had T2d for the flopped flush and BB had some retarded K-little no flush draw hand.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
yah, this is should be a call. As it turned out MP had T2d for the flopped flush and BB had some retarded K-little no flush draw hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

they're agressive...they can have ahnds like this a lot more than you think, but you see its a call and only a few hands in a wide distribution make it a fold. and those hands, being from a wide distribution are inherently less likely than your (and all of our) monster seeing mind thinks.

the biggest obstacle that i can remember in playing higher and higher limits was constantly seeing great players make calls that i was like"whaaaaaaaa??!?!?" then i finally saw it like every body else eventually does and lo and behold it all makes sense...sometimes you have to just call lol.

EDIT: now i just have to learn how to fold again /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

-Barron

[ike]

This fold sucked, but in general I highly doubt folding too much is among my biggest problems. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[pokerhooker]

[ QUOTE ]

the biggest obstacle that i can remember in playing higher and higher limits was constantly seeing great players make calls that i was like"whaaaaaaaa??!?!?" then i finally saw it like every body else eventually does and lo and behold it all makes sense...sometimes you have to just call lol.

EDIT: now i just have to learn how to fold again /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

-Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this a lot, and find it particularly true. As an example, I play about 4x bigger than my girfriend, and she was sweating me in a live 40-80 game last night. I called a river bet with A9 on a board of T9826. She thought I was nuts /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[theBruiser500]

"BB's action worried me alot too, looks kinda like a set or KQ."

how does a set make any sense with BBs action? i can't see that at all. maybe top two because he has the board dominated but also he knows there are a lot of flush draws out there he can charge and it's a multiway pot so i don't think so, those hands don't make sense to me