A small disagreement I had with Joe Tall

[tpir90036]

10-handed 30/60 game. Decent player opens in MP, mostly terrible SB calls, you are in the BB with K /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

One of us thought it was an easy call, the other thought it was an easy muck. Does it matter much either way? If it's "not close" explain why.

[Clarkmeister]

I'm too lazy to elaborate, but I think it's an easy call. FWIW, I'd call headsup too.

[GuyOnTilt]

Easy call for a good postflop player. FWIW, I call here with the majority of suited hands, including hands like 75s, J7s, 54s, 95s, etc. so K6s is a very easy call for me. One more player in the pot and I call with every suited hand.

GoT

[Jeff W]

I've been folding in these spots. I will re-evaluate my blind play.

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been folding in these spots. I will re-evaluate my blind play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been folding the really shitty stuff too. I'll play almost any suited hand if it's 4way though, but I guess I should loosen up. What sort of profit in BB/hand are you showing in these spots GOT?

-SmileyEH

[Joe Tall]

I don't remember saying, "easy" to that muck. I think I said, "if MP is a respectable PFR, then it's an easier muck." I also think I mentioned liking one more caller. I know its close and would be more apt to call in a live game than online for what that is worth.

[Joe Tall]

I call with most of those hands as most of them are very easy to play postflop.

[Argus]

Why would anyone fold? You have to call: they're s00ted. Considering your discount and SB being a weak player, I think you're in decent shape here. Getting 5:1 with a suited king you aren't taking the worst of it if you play well postflop. Against an EP raise I'd think a while longer and still probably call.

[GuyOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
What sort of profit in BB/hand are you showing in these spots GOT?

[/ QUOTE ]

Filtered for 5-10 handed, BB, Put Money In, Didn't raise, I come up with -.32 BB/hand, which is 0.18/hand better than a fold. Is there a better way to filter for this?

GoT

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What sort of profit in BB/hand are you showing in these spots GOT?

[/ QUOTE ]

Filtered for 5-10 handed, BB, Put Money In, Didn't raise, I come up with -.32 BB/hand, which is 0.18/hand better than a fold. Is there a better way to filter for this?

GoT

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow! That is much higher than I thought. Sounds like a reasonable filter btw.
Thanks

-SmileyEH

[AdamL]

How can a fold be -EV preflop? Is it because you're counting the SB you put in as the Big Blind as "yours"?

I'm just asking, not picking a fight here.

[TXTiger]

I wonder if the answer is different for live players vs multi tablers. I try to avoid marginal situations because my reads generally suck. I ran the same filter and since all of my old data is gone and I just started over I only came up with 144 hands that fit the bill. I am +0.09 but I'm not trying to say this number is meaningfull.

FWIW I fold here, but I have wondered about this situation. I'll call any 2 suited getting 7:1. Here you're gettting 5:1 and you can make a good top pair. I believe the odds of catching a 4 flush/two pair or better are roughly 7:1 (correct me if wrong). You can add in implied odds + top pair wins and call gettting 5:1, but I'm hesitant to give myself much in implied odds because if I make top pair with my king I'm going to the river almost 100% of the time. Too many online players will be pissed that the K fell when they started with QQ, so they will play it like they have AA. Which means my king is seeing the river while oop against the raiser.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
How can a fold be -EV preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

it's a pretty simple concept you're probably just overlooking: would folding AA preflop be -EV?

folding a hand preflop that figures to win it's fare share or make $ via implied odds is -EV.

[AdamL]

I see what you mean. Ok. I always figured EV was 0 for folding. If you fold AA preflop, you expect to make 0 and lose 0.

But I see what you're saying.

[GuyOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
How can a fold be -EV preflop? Is it because you're counting the SB you put in as the Big Blind as "yours"?

I'm just asking, not picking a fight here.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, folding is not -EV; it's always neutral. But if I fold every time it's my BB in this situation, my PT will say I'm making exactly -0.5 BB/hand. That still doesn't mean it's -EV to fold; just that I've put money in previously, so I'm going to show a net loss by giving up now every time.

GoT

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
How can a fold be -EV preflop? Is it because you're counting the SB you put in as the Big Blind as "yours"?

I'm just asking, not picking a fight here.

[/ QUOTE ]

By calling he loses less than the value of the big blind, so he actually wins money by calling, because otherwise he would lose the value of the big blind.

Oh, and I also would call with the K6s.

[W. Deranged]

Another way to think of it is that PT is returning the total EV for the hand in question, not for the specific decision in play. So you can think of a call as returning +.18 and a fold as returning 0.

[belloc]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would anyone fold? You have to call: they're s00ted. Considering your discount and SB being a weak player, I think you're in decent shape here. Getting 5:1 with a suited king you aren't taking the worst of it if you play well postflop. Against an EP raise I'd think a while longer and still probably call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can I ask a simple question here? We always talk in SS about being "good postflop". Yes I've read SSH many times, so in general I know what it means to be a good vs. bad postflop player. But this is exactly the kind of hand where one might think that you're either going to get hit by the flop or not.

So, what would being good postflop mean in this particular hand? If the opener in MP is respectable, he's coming in with a decent hand. Does being "good postflop" mean that you're going to get him to lay down the hand through aggression? Does in mean that you're going to recognize when you're beat and lose less than a bad postflop player would in the same situation? Does it mean that you won't peel one off to a backdoor flush with one overcard (or perhaps that you *will*)?

I know this is a basic and stupid question, and it's certainly situation dependent (which is why I asked it here, because the situation is fairly well defined).

Maybe this would help: can we put out some example flops and turns where a good postflop player would outshine a bad one?

Sorry for the minor hijack, but this has been on my mind lately.

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
So, what would being good postflop mean in this particular hand?

[/ QUOTE ]
The opposite of bad /images/graemlins/wink.gif And bad plays would include but not be limited to automatically trying to showdown any piece of the flop we hit in the face of resistance, etc. For example, if the flop comes K-high with one of our suit and we c/r the pre-flop raiser and get 3-bet, or raised on the turn, continuing past 4th street if we don't improve against a tight player is probably not such a hot idea.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
would folding AA preflop be -EV?

[/ QUOTE ]
No.

[Argus]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
Why would anyone fold? You have to call: they're s00ted. Considering your discount and SB being a weak player, I think you're in decent shape here. Getting 5:1 with a suited king you aren't taking the worst of it if you play well postflop. Against an EP raise I'd think a while longer and still probably call.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, what would being good postflop mean in this particular hand? If the opener in MP is respectable, he's coming in with a decent hand. Does being "good postflop" mean that you're going to get him to lay down the hand through aggression?

[/ QUOTE ]
I doubt it, because I don't see him laying down a better hand, even if it is AK unimproved unless he's timid postflop and SB gives us a hand in making him face two bets.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
Does in mean that you're going to recognize when you're beat and lose less than a bad postflop player would in the same situation?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is my hope. There is the risk of domination here, so I'd be willing to fold a pair if the action made me think it was no good. A bad player may not know that check/call, check/call, bet is the typical way ahead/way behind line and the way to lose the least when behind.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
Does it mean that you won't peel one off to a backdoor flush with one overcard (or perhaps that you *will*)?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see the pot being big enough to warrant this, but I would definitely consider overcards and backdoor draws to determine whether I had pot odds to continue. Analysing this situation correctly is something that good postflop players do, and bad ones do not. Bad players generally overemphasise their value (chasing stations), or underestimate them (weak/tights).

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
I know this is a basic and stupid question, and it's certainly situation dependent (which is why I asked it here, because the situation is fairly well defined).

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think this is a dumb question at all.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
Maybe this would help: can we put out some example flops and turns where a good postflop player would outshine a bad one?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a tricky question, because part of the problem is that a bad postflop player may not react to SB's action correctly considering that the PFR is still left to act behind.
AK6 - the bad player may not judge correctly whether his 2-pair is good or not.
459 with one of our suit - Two backdoors and an overcard. Is it worth peeling one off here?
AQQ, two of our suit - what flop line is best (this heavily depends on SB's action).
KJT - how much do you like your hand on this broadway heavy flop? What if the ten is an ace?

These are all situations where a poor player might give too much or too little action, and a good player will hopefully win the most or lose the least.