How many streets did I misplay?

[topspin]

Converter doesn't seem to like the hand so a few manual fixes went in.

Been playing at the table for a while now. Button is loosey-passive preflop and likes to cold-call with all sorts of hands, but doesn't raise much preflop. Postflop he switches gears and will fire away with marginal hands like 2nd pair and worse -- he 3-bet me on the turn once with 2nd pair poor kicker. He's also prone to bluffing postflop if he feels like he might pick up the pot.

BB is a rock; his VPIP over the last 50 hands is under 10. Consequently I've seen him enter around 10 hands and frankly his postflop play hasn't made much of an impression -- mostly he's called or folded, and may have bet once or twice, but I haven't seen him raise yet.

Party Poker (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, Hero raises, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players, 8SB)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets,SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

With a relatively large field and a coordinated board, I opt to check-call here. Given button's style of play it's pretty hard for me to put him on a good hand and fold, so I'd like to see a turn, but I'd rather not worry about paying 2 bets to do so.

Note that I'm not really worried about draws since I can't force anyone out anyways, and I'm most likely still drawing myself.

Turn: K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 5.5BB)</font>
BB checks, Hero bets, CO folds, BB check-raises, Hero folds.

Two decisions here -- the leading out, then the fold. I debated check-raising, but my hand isn't really one that likes to build a big pot, plus there's some (small) chance Button checks it through, and now I have enough of a hand that I don't want to give any free cards.

When BB check-raises, I'm pretty sure he's got a good hand and is beating top pair. At the time I had him pegged for the flush, althogh this may be too narrow a range in retrospect. My one-card flush draw probably is worth a few outs, and I may have outs to counterfeit a two pair type of hand. (I'm getting 1:8.5 in immediate odds.)

In retrospect, I think calling and folding the river UI would have been better...

EDIT: Fixed HH.

[Dave G.]

I'm not sure I'd be playing KTo from here, but if you're comfortable with this hand on this table then it's fine.

Your flop call is a bit thin. You're getting 10:1 for your money. Your overcards aren't worth 3 outs I don't think; the T gives additional possibilities to straight draws and can be beaten by a higher card too. I think 0.75 outs for your backdoor flush draw is fair with only a T. So you have probably about 3.25 outs. You need about 14:1 to continue here and you're only getting 10:1. Seems like a good spot to fold.

BB could have a straight or a flush, or even two pair. I think folding the turn is wrong. You have a flush draw that'll be good some of the time and you've got further outs if he is raising it up with two pair.

So I agree with you. Calling the turn and folding the river UI seems good, but folding the flop is better.

[bozlax]

Preflop: not sure I raise this from MP3, given that you're not folding Button (CO?) if he has anything.

Flop: meh. Closing the action, I guess you're ok. If you hadn't raised preflop this would be an easy fold for me.

Turn: I think this fold is terrible. I've said it before and I'm sure I'll say it again, if you're only going to fold to a little bit of agression when you make your hand, why continue past the flop? Anyway, you know this, and you're right, you should've called the raise and check/folded the river UI. He might've just been taking a shot at you...you only have 50 hands on him, he may have been watching The Nick &amp; Jessica Fourth of July Spectacular on Tivo while bonus-clearing and the show just ended so he started paying attention again.

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: not sure I raise this from MP3, given that you're not folding Button (CO?) if he has anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry about the mixup with the hand. Button/CO in the post were the same person (as I'm sure you've figured out).

It's unclear what action you're arguing for preflop. You can't open-limp any hand in MP3 -- you're either raising or folding. I'm perfectly happy to have Button cold-call with any random two cards. (In case the original read wasn't clear, this is essentially what he was doing -- he'd cold-call any two suited, connectors, one-gappers, etc etc.)

I think open-folding KTo is losing a lot of value here, and open-limping is pretty icky, so preflop was the street I'm most comfortable with /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
It's unclear what action you're arguing for preflop. You can't open-limp any hand in MP3 -- you're either raising or folding. I'm perfectly happy to have Button cold-call with any random two cards. (In case the original read wasn't clear, this is essentially what he was doing -- he'd cold-call any two suited, connectors, one-gappers, etc etc.)

I think open-folding KTo is losing a lot of value here, and open-limping is pretty icky, so preflop was the street I'm most comfortable with /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It's probably unclear as I'm not entirely clear on it myself. I agree that open-limping from MP3, in most situations, sucks. But, I also hate raising KTo without a specific reason.

And, I think you're playing two different players...maybe CO/Button IS two people! Because if he's playing ANY two cards preflop, even against a raise, then the rest of the hand plays itself. You have overcards to the flop, you call. You make top pair, you see a showdown. If there's a question later in the hand, it's only because he might have a hand you have to worry about. Otherwise, your fold on the turn was the Worst. Fold. Ever.

Yeah. I just went back and re-read your read...and based on this added information he'll call anything preflop and then turn into a borderline maniac postflop. With top-pair, good kicker plus a four-flush, you have to call down. His raise means nothing. I might even advocate a 3-bet, as you're very likely to have the best hand, even if he does hold a king.

[TomBrooks]

What limit is this?

[benkath1]

[ QUOTE ]
In retrospect, I think calling and folding the river UI would have been better...

[/ QUOTE ]

What cards are you looking for on the river? If you're feeling the flush on the turn, do you really want another spade? Are you looking for a 10 just to have a hand that is call worthy on the river?

[malorum]

If you raise pre-flop against poor players.
You should then often bet out on the flop when first to act against 3 players. I think in many weaker games, you get enough bad folds as well as bad calls to make it worth it.
If you get raised on the flop think about folding unless u have the odds to draw.

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
What limit is this?

[/ QUOTE ]

1/2 full ring at Party.

I just noticed that I didn't manage to fix the whole hand. Button and CO in the hand are actually the same person.

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In retrospect, I think calling and folding the river UI would have been better...

[/ QUOTE ]

What cards are you looking for on the river? If you're feeling the flush on the turn, do you really want another spade? Are you looking for a 10 just to have a hand that is call worthy on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'm pretty confused about BB. I'm not sure what he'd call preflop from the blind with given his low VPIP. Two pair on this board seems unlikely unless it's 45s. A slowplayed set is possible, but then I have flush outs. A flush is possible, but given that 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, and K/images/graemlins/spade.gif are out, any flush is likely to be bigger than mine since there aren't really any small suited connectors left.

Given that it's HU once Button folds, I'd call the river given pretty much any improved hand. I don't think I'd feel very good about any card though -- the interesting part about the turn decision is that I have lots of potential outs, but they all have to be severely discounted.

In a multi-way pot I'm more inclined towards a fold since I don't want to be giving reverse implied odds in case I improve my hand and still spew a lot of chips with a 3rd-best hand if there's a lot of raising, but HU I think I tossed this too quickly.

[hicherbie]

where did the button go?

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah. I just went back and re-read your read...and based on this added information he'll call anything preflop and then turn into a borderline maniac postflop. With top-pair, good kicker plus a four-flush, you have to call down. His raise means nothing. I might even advocate a 3-bet, as you're very likely to have the best hand, even if he does hold a king.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry about the hand -- I guess it's still messed up even after I tried to fix it /images/graemlins/blush.gif There are basically 2 players of signficance in the hand: Button/CO, who are the same person and is a bit schizo pre and postflop, and BB, who is tight-passive both preflop and post. It's BB that's doing the check-raising.

Let me try again on the post:

Party Poker ($1/$2 limit, 10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, Hero raises, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players, 8SB)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 5.5BB)</font>
BB checks, Hero bets, Button folds, BB check-raises, Hero folds.

[davelin]

I'm calling this turn. Without reads, I may call one more on the river.

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm calling this turn. Without reads, I may call one more on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even UI? I'm curious why ... I could see villain leading or calling with a worse hand, but I just don't see a check-raise with top pair weak kicker or worse.

In the interests of complete disclosure, aside from the reads noted in my original post, villain had an AF of 0.69 after 70 hands (small sample disclaimer).

[imported_The Vibesman]

I'd have folded the turn too. Rocks don't checkraise w/ tpmk w/ a flush draw on the board. I don't think any of your outs can be counted on. The flush draw could be already beaten, the two pair hand could easily be no good (another possible hand for BB is a set).

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm calling this turn. Without reads, I may call one more on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even UI? I'm curious why ... I could see villain leading or calling with a worse hand, but I just don't see a check-raise with top pair weak kicker or worse.

In the interests of complete disclosure, aside from the reads noted in my original post, villain had an AF of 0.69 after 70 hands (small sample disclaimer).

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a bad habit of looking at the hand without reading reads or not (shame on me). I've seen here check-raises from K-weaker kicker, someone who has a piece of the board plus a high-spade. Given your read of him, perhaps folding for one more bet on the river is wise but may be worth it for the more substantial read alone.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
In a multi-way pot I'm more inclined towards a fold since I don't want to be giving reverse implied odds in case I improve my hand and still spew a lot of chips with a 3rd-best hand if there's a lot of raising, but HU I think I tossed this too quickly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, the hand (and your play) makes better sense, now. I guess it always had BB C/R'ing, I just mis-read it last night.

I think it's close between calling down and folding. If your only reason for folding is a 70-hand read on BB that he's a rock, I think you've gotta call down. He might've been multi-tabling/cold-decked for the last hour, or something, I'm not willing to give that much credit to it without some additional evidence.

[TomBrooks]

I think it's worth a look at the river card. I think BB has spades but they could be low. He came into the hand with any two. I'd check/call the river if a spade came or check/fold otherwise.

[Dave G.]

I'm very surprised that noone else has commented on the flop call. I think this is a fairly obvious fold. I detailed my reasons in a previous post. Am I missing something here?

[bozlax]

I think the consensus is that while the flop call is thin, based on top's reads it's not ridiculous, and it's also not the interesting part of the hand. I agree with this. In fact, thinking back on it, I'm a tad surprised that he didn't semi-bluff check-raise to try and force out the rock.

Edit: uh, ok, he acted after the rock. Never mind.

[aces_dad]

But with the agressive button to act next, he could have bet the flop and forced the SB and BB(rock) to face 2 cold.

Seems if we could get to the turn heads up against the button we'd like this hand a lot more.

[imported_The Vibesman]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the consensus is that while the flop call is thin, based on top's reads it's not ridiculous, and it's also not the interesting part of the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, though I didn't like the call when I first saw it. I meant to comment on it in a small way, but got caught up with the turn.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
But with the agressive button to act next, he could have bet the flop and forced the SB and BB(rock) to face 2 cold.

Seems if we could get to the turn heads up against the button we'd like this hand a lot more.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is possible. I'm not sure that OP's reads were strong enough one way or the other to make that kinds of play, however.