Think "AA" in omaha is something . .READ ON

[ADAMtheEXPERT]

1) There is NO SUCH THING, as "aces" in any omaha game, especially pot limit. Two aces are only a SEGMENT of a possible hand. And I do mean, POSSIBLE.

In this case, with your RAGAMUFFIN AA48 offsuit hand, you MIGHT have had a crying call, if the person raising was indeed VERY bad. However, if you continue to reraise in this spot, well then to say it politely, you just are NOT ready for pot limit, high or high-low.

Omaha, my friends, is NOT a "before the flop" kinda game.

Now, the very very best omaha hands (Which you AIN"T got, by the way) Are a much bigger favorite over poor hands, than they are in straight high, by FAR.

HOWEVER, the fact that they can make superpremium flops/turns/rivers, means that you would want as many players in the pot as possible. Maybe you get 3-4 of a 1600 buck pot, something like that.

Think about it, and THINK HARD: Do you really want the few measly bucks in the pot right now? NO! you do NOT! And, this all presupposes, that the live one, doesn't just by accident have a REAL AA hand, and you are DEAD MEAT.

If the flop is 8 3 4, with two diamonds, and you have AA 25 suited in ace diamonds . . . . .


DID YOU WANT EVERYONE OUT, OR EVERYONE IN FOR 20 BUCKS

How about if you make a set and nut low AND nut flush draw.


OK, NOW BEAR WITH THE ALL CAPS, ATE IS MAKING A LIFE-CHANGING POINT HERE:


Hold em, is about protecting what you've got, as the hand has a very significant chance of standing up, especially against one player (when you have a premium pair, or hands after the flop)

Omaha high low, is about MAKING hands with waht you start with, as technically, you do not have ANYthing, until the flop comes. Yes, this is true: since you MUST use three cards from the board, you don't even have a legal hand, until the flop.

The sad fact of life, is it's just too easy for someone to make something, and you will NEVER KNOW THAT THEY HAVE IT, UNTIL YOU LOSE ALL YOUR CHIPS.

This is 1000 times true, when you are up against people, without the sense to fold, when it's obvious that you've got aces, WHICH IS ALMOST ALL OF 'EM.

THE PRINCIPLE VALUE, OF THE SEGMENT OF "AA" IS BEING IN A SITUATION WHERE YOU CAN MAKE A BIG RAISE, AND YOUR OPPONENTS ARE NOT LOOSE/STUPID ENOUGH, TO ACTUALLY CALL.

When you know for a FACT, that they ARE going to call, well most of the value of your AA segment is LOST.

You just GOTTA see the flop, and be prepared to lose only a small amount, when you get a horrible flop.

But, you reraise like you did, and now get something like

4 K J, the pot is now so big, that you feel you must bet to protect your hand, only to find the sucker has two pair, or WHATEVER, and beats your butt.

OR, like I said, they have a REAL AA hand, and quarter your bass!


Ok, now if the brats on this site, are the only ones commenting on this, I GIVE UP. If the readers of this site, are so ignorant, that they cannot tell that ATE is a TRUE GENIUS OF POKER, then GOODBYE.

I have plenty of sites, where they respect me.




adam the helpful genius of poker, especially omaha

[Wintermute]

I get a kick out of reading ATE's posts. But anyone who is serious about improving their PLO8 game should ignore this post completely.

[bygmesterf]

[ QUOTE ]
I get a kick out of reading ATE's posts. But anyone who is serious about improving their PLO8 game should ignore this post completely.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know, he is right about raising with AAxx preflop in PLO games. If you can't get all in preflop (you or the other person), you shouldn't make the first raise.

[D-Grief]

What about a situation where there has been one max raiser and the action was folded to you in late position? Would it not then be right to pump it with AAxx(with low) if you suspected the blinds would fold anyway? Is is not a hand that plays well heads-up?

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I get a kick out of reading ATE's posts. But anyone who is serious about improving their PLO8 game should ignore this post completely.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know, he is right about raising with AAxx preflop in PLO games. If you can't get all in preflop (you or the other person), you shouldn't make the first raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will raise 100% of the time with AA after a bunch of limpers.

[fuzzbox]

This is a complete load of horsesh1t.

[Cooker]

In many ways I agree with you. Roughly speaking, the goal of big bet poker in general is to make a monster hand against someone that can't lay down a strong hand and get all or most of his chips. It is nice to steal pots here and there to keep the action going, but if the money goes in, you better not have just a strong high hand or the nut low. This is begging to get quartered and if you are getting quartered often in PLO8 you are a bigtime losing player. Still, some hands are worth raising for value if you can still play them well after the flop and you would like to build a big pot in case you hit your set of aces.

[ADAMtheEXPERT]

WARNING: anyone who wants to learn the game, had better ignor this poster. Anyone who thinks ATE doesn't know anything, well DOESN'T KNOW ANYTHING.

Look, you lying dipstick MARK Gregorich, voted as the best omaha pLAYER in the world, and a contributor to SuperSystem II, has QUOTED ATE, and commented favorably on my articles.

So who the PLUCK, are you, to dare to say anything

I'll tell you who you are: someone who gets their BUTT kicked, by overplaying AA hands, in omaha.

[ADAMtheEXPERT]

thank you for the decent answer. Again ONE MORE TIME let's clarify.

ATE is not saying that sometimes you don't raise, with an AA HAND

NOTICE THE BIG BIG difference: AA, is NOT a hand. However, when combined with APPROPRIATE powerful and syncronized cards, the ENTIRE HAND, as a package, can have
good power.

but, YOU STILL almost never want to go all in, before the flop.

When up against total, total balloons, yeah

couple years ago, ATE was playing on 24h poker, and had

AAJ10 double suited NOTE: this hand, is NOT "aces" but rather a well-coordinated, POWERFUL "aa" HAND

anyway, the live action moron, had K Q 3 5, and we each put in 600 bucks.

ATE won.


The person giving the "warning" just does'nt know what the hello minus o he's talking about.

To anyone wishing to learn, and wanting to make sure that ATE does indeed know what he's talking about, I'd suggest you do the research.

Oh wait, I'll do a seperate article, on that.

[Wintermute]

[ QUOTE ]
WARNING: anyone who wants to learn the game, had better ignor this poster. Anyone who thinks ATE doesn't know anything, well DOESN'T KNOW ANYTHING.

Look, you lying dipstick MARK Gregorich, voted as the best omaha pLAYER in the world, and a contributor to SuperSystem II, has QUOTED ATE, and commented favorably on my articles.

So who the PLUCK, are you, to dare to say anything

I'll tell you who you are: someone who gets their BUTT kicked, by overplaying AA hands, in omaha.

[/ QUOTE ]


ATE, I try to prove points about starting hands with statistical evidence. For example, here are my statistics from the 100,000 PLO8 hands I've played, some 2,700 of which contained AAxx. As a key "h" refers to a high card, 9-Ace. "l" refers to a low card, 2-8. Perhaps you are mistaken that I am someone who gets my butt kicked by overplaying AA in PLO8? By extension, perhaps you are mistaken about some other things?


From my current PTO database (~40,000 hands):

AAxx total: 1182 hands, 1.47 BB/hand
AAhh: 196 hands, 0.92 BB/hand
AAhl: 584 hands, 1.27 BB/hand
AAll: 402 hands, 2.04 BB/hand

From my first Pokertracker database (~60k hands played):

AAxx total: 1534 hands, 1.87 BB/hand
AAhh: 246 hands, 0.37 BB/hand
AAhl: 807 hands, 1.75 BB/hand
AAll: 481 hands, 2.82 BB/hand

Note: for comparison, all hands taken together I make an average of roughly 0.1 BB/hand.



(PWN3D)

[ADAMtheEXPERT]

Again, the best answer to this is Roy Cook's famous: "it depends"

Also, notice that you are saying xx, but then say that you have low cards. If you indeed have "xx" (which would be lik an 9 and a 10, offsuit) then NO! it does NOT play well heads up, especially agaisnt a raiser.

With the "low cards" that you mention, again, : it depends.

It depends on what those low cards ARE. If they are a 7 and an 8 NO! If you are up against a quality, double-suited hand, such as A 2 3 5 double suited, they can very very very very very easily, KICK YOUR BUTT. There wheel power, beats your AA power. If they hit, you may lose your whole stack

BUT IF THE FLOP COMES SOMETHING LIKE Q J 6, and you bet the pot, you won't get any more money from them.


OK, NOW PLEASE, AND WITHOUT ANY MORE IDIOTIC "WARNINGS" EVERYONE DRILL A WHOLE INTO YOUR BRAINS, AND POUR THIS INFORMATION IN:

'The object of a pot limit omaha game, especially hi low, is to totally bust someone, for a big stack, in a situation where you are FREEROLLING, or at least a very very big favorite. It is NOT, to try to win the money, before the flop.

If someone raised to 12, let's say, in a 400 max game, with A 3 6 J suited jack

AND YOU HAVE AA24 suited ace, with the same suit as their jack

YOU DO NOT NOT NOT NOT A MILLION "NOTS" WANT THAT 12 BUCKS FROM THEM.

If you think that the correct play, is to make it 40

Then you are not ready for this game. PERIOD. And, that's not indended, as an insult. It's not your fault, making the transition from hold em, to omaha, AIN'T EASY!

And, making the transition, from limit, to pot limt

IS EVEN LESS EASY.

In a limit game, I would want to reraise here. Incread the power of my AA segment of the hand, by trying to get it heads up. And, since you can't get that much more money off the original raiser, anyway. IT WOULD NOT BE A TOTAL loss, if everyone just folded.

but, in a POT limit game, the object is to get the opponent's whole stack, in a situation where you are pretty darned safe

OR EVEN TOTALLY SAFE.


Example:

couple months ago, ATE was playing the 400 max game on poker stars. I had an AA 47 with suited ace.

Someone raised, I called. The flop was A 3 9, with two spaded. The raiser bets the pot, now, NOW ATE raises the pot. The turn was a nine, and now he bets agin, I raise again (we both had over 500 beans, before the start of the hand. OH, did I mention that my suit was spades?

Any way, a non low card hit, and ATE cleans the guy out for over 500 smackers. He had A 3 9 J, and after the flop, ATE only had a 1/10th of 1% chance of losing.

Had I made a big reraise, with that rather weak hand, he may very well have NOT called.

It happened again, this time in straight high, and I flopped a set, aginst the original raisers, aces up

THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT OF POT LIMIT,

and if anyone ANYONE out there, (especially YOU, "warning" guy Ever thinks, and I mean THINKS about playing a REAL pot limt game, say in Vegas, or Anchorage, Alaska

(Ed note: when ATE says "real" he means: no maximum buy in)

THEN, YOU HAVE DAMNED WELL BETTER HEED ATE'S ADVICE, AND REALLY UNDERSTAND THE DYNAMICS OF THIS GAME.


Ok, enough with the naysayers. If y'all cannot tell, by now, that ATE not only knows what he's saying . . . .

BUT KNOWS EXACTLY, AND I MEAAAAAAAAAANNNNNN EXACT, pluckin' LY WHAT I'M SAYING, then there is little hope for you in poker. You must have the ability to tell which information is good, and which is not

Just consider yourselves LUCKY, that I'm SICK enough to stupidly give this away.


adam the helpful genius



OH, BY THE WAY, YOU BROKE THE RULES: PLEASE, I'm asking nicely, if you have a question of ATE, please ask in a new post. I do not already read all of the replies.

adam