I am bepuzzlement

[Punker]

Playing 4-8 yesterday, and it's a full kill, making the game 8-16. It's a very loose game, and even more strange, it doesn't really tighten up on kill pots.

One person limps, the killer checks and a reasonable player raises two off the button. Cutoff folds and I am on the button with 4 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/club.gif . I call, the limper calls and the killer calls. 4 of us see the flop for 2 bets. A shaky call, but almost every pot was going to showdown, so I felt that this hand gave enough implied odds to play it, although perhaps it's still too loose.

Flop: K /forums/images/icons/club.gif K /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

Both limpers check and the preflop raiser bets. I decide to take a gamble and not raise right away. The gamble here for me is that I do believe the raiser has a king. If I wait until the turn to raise, I will get 3-bet on the expensive street if he fills (or god forbid has quads). On the other hand, he may 3-bet me on the turn with a hand like AK for example. I also figure it can't be a bad idea to keep the limpers in to likely draw dead. However, both limpers fold and we are heads up.

Turn: [K /forums/images/icons/club.gif K /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif] A /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

That was the one card I didn't want to see on the turn. Raiser bets again, and I raise him anyways. I'm planning to call down if raised, but bet the river if he just calls. He just calls, but does so in a confident manner.

River: [K /forums/images/icons/club.gif K /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif A /forums/images/icons/spade.gif] 7 /forums/images/icons/club.gif

That's more like the card I want to see. Now the river will go check-bet-call and I win. However, he now bets out. I hem and haw and then call.

[Ed Miller]

I don't like the preflop call, and I don't think it's particularly close.

I would have raised the flop. If you think the raiser has a K, then he probably has a big kicker and will 3-bet you on the flop and then bet into you on the turn. I think you missed some bets here with the best hand.

[Jeffage]

The preflop call is pretty dubious. 44 needs multiway action to be profitable and the killer could fold when it comes back to him raised...also the blinds could fold. I would muck this hand and only coldcall if a few people (like 3 or so) limped bf the raiser. Ok, so you called..we've all done it. I would raise the flop and here's why. If he has a king you will get excessive action bc no one will put you on 44. If he has JJ or QQ or AA he may call down bc he thinks you wait to raise the turn with a king or you'd reraise pre. Plus it might cause him to go for a checkraise on the turn where u can make it 3 bets. I think AK would reraise the turn unless this player is prone to the stop and go gimmick. I think he could be valuebetting something like KQ hoping you don't raise and I may raise again...why wouldn't an AK who was planning to stop and go checkraise you again on the end. That all depends on your read. But I think playing faster initially is the way to play this hand (though you should muck pre).

Jeff

[Bob T.]

I think that there are two kinds of full houses, one where your full house is smaller than the board pair, and the other one where your full house is bigger than the board pair. Whenever I have the underfull as you did here, I am going to play the hand fast. There are two many dangerous cards out there, anyone with trips is drawing live, and I want to win the hand if I can. If I have the Full house above the board pair, then I might consider slowplaying, because most players will be drawing dead to my hand, and I want trips to fill up to get me more action.