Question on domination

[FishyWhale]

Q9 for example is dominated by K9 or QT, just as it is dominated by QQ and 99.

But is JJ and TT also said to "dominate" Q9?

[Tommy Angelo]

"But is JJ and TT also said to "dominate" Q9?"

My understanding is that "domination" only exists two hands share one card. So the answer to your question would be no.

I think that the fear and effects of domination are overrated, for several reasons. First, if two hands share a card, that card will hit the board with the same frequency of a flopped set, which isn't often enough for me to keep me from raising with AQ in fear that you will have AK AND that an ace will flop. Second, give me the KJ against your KQ, and despite the domination, I very much like the situation if I am behind you and I was the last preflop raiser. Third, what about my 54 against your 53? Just how dominated do you feel? And at just what card rank should the fear begin?

Tommy

[Punker]

I consider there to be 3 stages of Domination, which I like to call "D".

1) Regular D; opponent has 3 outs to win: eg, AK vs AJ, or QQ vs AQ, or AT vs KT

2) Big D; opponent has 2 outs to win: eg, AA vs KK

3) The mother of all D; opponent has 3 outs but must hit twice: eg, AA vs AK.

Your hand example isn't really D (JJ vs Q9) since I think the big concept in D is that one card should make both of your hands, but make yours better. I suppose this doesn't apply to Big D either...but still..how can AA not be dominating KK!

The truth is that it's a semantics question not really worth thinking too much about (it reminds me of a chess discussion about how to define "a combination").

[FishyWhale]

In other words, JJ does not dominate Q9. Ok, thanks.

[Bozeman]

I consider dominated to mean 3 outs or less to better hand. In this case (q9 jj) you need a queen to take the lead, so it is domination.

[FishyWhale]

If on the other hand the flop is 932, the player with Q9 has got 5 outs to beat JJ, not 3.

[brad]

textbook domination example is AQ vs KQ. (and a Queen flops and you know the rest.)

[Gus Contos]

"Domination" describes the case where one hand has three outs or fewer against the other. Q9 has three outs against JJ or TT, so yes, those pairs dominate Q9.

GC

[Clarkmeister]

I'm with Gus on this one. KK dominates AQ. We just don't talk about it as much.

[Tommy Angelo]

"I'm with Gus on this one. KK dominates AQ."

I think that is faulty usage. Let's look at how the word dominate gets used. "Playing K-J is dangerous in that spot because you might be dominated by KQ, AJ, or AK."

If you were writing that sentence, would you have added QQ to that list? How about AA? Would you ever say, "Playing 9-8 is dangerous because you might be dominated by AA?

Tommy

[Clarkmeister]

"Would you ever say, "Playing 9-8 is dangerous because you might be dominated by AA"

Yes, but maybe it's just me.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Tommy:

Suppose a solid player raises in early position, how do you like that AQ now (or KQ, or KJ, etc).?

As we point out in HPFAP, if someone else has raised, you are next, no one else is in, and you are not in the big blind, there are very few hands that you should be calling with. (An exception occurs in loose games.) That is it is almost always right to usually fold and sometimes reraise.

Best wishes,
Mason

[FishyWhale]

Do we define domination through a) only through the 3 or less outs aspect (JJ does dominate Q9) or b) also through shared cards (JJ does not dominate Q9)?

When the flop comes 932, the player with Q9 has 5 and not 3 outs to beat JJ however, so given that, I lean toward version b)

Your opinions?

[Gus Contos]

"I think that is faulty usage. Let's look at how the word dominate gets used. "Playing K-J is dangerous in that spot because you might be dominated by KQ, AJ, or AK.""

"Gets used" by whom? If I were offering similar advice, I would write: "Playing K-J is dangerous in that spot because you might be dominated by AA, KK, QQ, JJ, KQ, AJ, or AK."

The shared-card examples are often used because they make it obvious that a hand can appear very close in value to another when, in fact, it's a mile behind.

98 is, of course, dominated by AA. We just don't think of it that way because, most of the time, we don't think of 98 winning by flopping top pair. However, if you ever find yourself playing 98 against AA, and the flop comes 962, the domination will become quickly, and painfully, obvious.

GC