Things I never do

[Cerril]

Alright, it's getting to be that time. Low 20s VPIP with a 17ish PFR just isn't cutting it anymore.

Problem is, I'm having trouble finding where to fix my hands.

Now if I'm correct, the increased calling and raising standards are pretty much read dependent, so obviously some of the suggestions I'm looking for aren't changes to my default play. Though if you spot any holes, let me know

What I am trying to find are things that I'm not doing enough preflop, areas where I can look to increase my comfort level first. Since VP$IP is strongly correlated with PFR, I expect most of the answers will involve raises rather than calls, but I'll go down the list anyway.

--Open outside the blinds with small pocket pairs 22-44
--Open in EP/MP with suited connectors smaller than T9s
--Open with unsuited connectors smaller than JTo anywhere
--Come in with steal hands (Kxs, Ax, 66-- with a limper)
--Coldcall or call a raise from the SB (reraise or fold)
--Open limp, from any position
--Steal with offsuit hands with a 2 or 3 except from the SB
--3bet without a high quality hand except from the BB, or a pair 55+ in the SB (specifically hands like KJ/ATs/66 get tossed to an EP raise).
--Steal with no hand whatsoever (though I will steal from the SB with ATS against someone who folds their BB too much, but not from the button)
--Open raise with low (A8--) aces in the CO, same with K8o and lower.


I'm sure there's a lot more I'm not doing, since I'm close to 10% shy of an 'expert-level' VP$IP. I'll get into postflop stuff later too, but I'm sort of curious what sort of weaker hands I'd be best looking at playing preflop.

[RunDownHouse]

What's your idea of an expert VPIP, and how did you arrive at this conclusion?

Its also important to know the level - and with that, blind structure - for help to be most effective.

[Jeff W]

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--Open outside the blinds with small pocket pairs 22-44

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Open these on the button usually.

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--Open in EP/MP with suited connectors smaller than T9s

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Don't start now.

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--Open with unsuited connectors smaller than JTo anywhere

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Sometimes I'll open the best of these(T9o and 98o) on the button vs. tight blinds.

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--Come in with steal hands (Kxs, Ax, 66-- with a limper)

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I do this a lot and so do many good players whose hand histories I've reviewed.

[ QUOTE ]

--Coldcall or call a raise from the SB (reraise or fold)

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I cold call sometimes in multi-way pots with suited connectors and pocket pairs.

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--Open limp, from any position

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Rarely I'll do this in the SB only under the right circumstances.

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--Steal with offsuit hands with a 2 or 3 except from the SB

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I steal A2/A3 OTB only.

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--3bet without a high quality hand except from the BB, or a pair 55+ in the SB (specifically hands like KJ/ATs/66 get tossed to an EP raise).

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I 3-bet medium quality hands like ATs and 66 quite frequently. I'll go lower than that if circumstances permit.

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--Steal with no hand whatsoever (though I will steal from the SB with ATS against someone who folds their BB too much, but not from the button)

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I'll steal with 32o if I think it's +EV. It isn't very often.

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--Open raise with low (A8--) aces in the CO, same with K8o and lower.

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A7/A8 are good in the CO. I'll raise down to A5 if button is tight.

[Cerril]

Eek, you're absolutely right. I play party 5/10 right now, just passed the 50k hands mark, though I'm hoping to attain the skillset to move up to 10/20 eventually. Bankroll is oddly less of an issue than skill.

Far as 'expert play' I'm thinking the low to mid 30s, but I'm only hoping to get to 25-28% in the next couple months. Basically I've gotten a strong impression that there is a lot of EV in even more marginal hands than I play, provided I can learn to play my opponents better.

[Michael Davis]

"Far as 'expert play' I'm thinking the low to mid 30s"

Of the people I know who are beating the hell out of the 5-10 nobody is this high. However, you might be right that the real experts have moved on since some of the forum's best play this many hands. There are tons of guys here killing the games playing in the mid-20s even if that's not en vogue.

-Michael

[ckessel]

[ QUOTE ]
Alright, it's getting to be that time. Low 20s VPIP with a 17ish PFR just isn't cutting it anymore.


[/ QUOTE ]

What level? I'm 24/15 at 3/6 and doing pretty well so far.

[steaknshake925]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--Open outside the blinds with small pocket pairs 22-44



Open these on the button usually.

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what about CO? i'll open from there 44+.

[ QUOTE ]
Open raise with low (A8--) aces in the CO, same with K8o and lower.


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i never open with <K8o from CO.

everything else im pretty much the same with jeff

[Cerril]

Oh, I'm doing alright... I'm at 1BB/100 over 50k, and a bit over 2 over 20k. But struggling to keep it at 22, and that's pretty well recognized as the lowest you can do and still do 'well' (as opposed to 'squeaking buy'). I'd be content in the 25ish range, I think, if I felt the hands I was adding were actually profitable

[Victor]

i think its a total fallacy that your vpip must be at a certain level or you wont make good money.

[J.R.]

victor is right.

play poker. make good decisions. who cares about a few points of vpip. one thing i realized recently is you have to stay within yourself and play your game. Each of us have particular strengths and weakness. while that's not to imply we shouldn't try to indentify and improve our weakness, the margin betwen excellent and mediocre poker is slim, and it only takes one hand per 100 that you screw up to really cut into that thin margin.

so don't focus on stats, or arbitrray rules like raise JTs here or there--instead, just play and focus on things like "how could I have played that hand differently"- have I considered all three options (bet/raise, call/check, fold) before I acted. the more you think about the game the more you will begin to **recognize** where to improve your play and perhaps add hands/moves.

its not steadfast rules or relative absolutes you want- its better poker thinking. so instead of searching for rules, practice thinking- play fewer tables and enage your imagination.

I sound like a condescending ass so ignore the tone and seriously try fewer tables and more situational, read based decision-making. Its the nuts

[vetman81]

.

[donger]

Don't most people pick up VP$IP points for opening up their blind defense standards? How are you in those areas?

[Stack]

[ QUOTE ]
while that's not to imply we shouldn't try to indentify and improve our weakness, the margin betwen excellent and mediocre poker is slim, and it only takes one hand per 100 that you screw up to really cut into that thin margin.


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wow! My lesson of the day. Thanks

[Michael Davis]

"the margin betwen excellent and mediocre poker is slim, and it only takes one hand per 100 that you screw up to really cut into that thin margin."

Okay, true, but you really have to be making a major error on that 1 hand to make this claim. Because few bad calls cost more than a small fraction, especially from half-decent players.

-Michael

[Stack]

[ QUOTE ]
"the margin betwen excellent and mediocre poker is slim, and it only takes one hand per 100 that you screw up to really cut into that thin margin."

Okay, true, but you really have to be making a major error on that 1 hand to make this claim. Because few bad calls cost more than a small fraction, especially from half-decent players.

-Michael

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He said "one hand per hundred that you screw up".

I took "screw up" as losing a pot that we would have won if played correctly, as opposed to missing a value bet here and there or paying off one extra BB here and there.

[Cerril]

That's a great point. A lot of that has to do with whether I have a read on my opponent. I'm pretty (actually, very) tight in the SB in most cases, since it's uncommon I'm directly to the right of a tight BB and the left of a loose steal (usually it's the loose BB and a loose-ish steal).

In the BB against steals the default has become A5+, sort of a floating K6-K8 (sometimes I'll fold, sometimes I won't), Q9+, and 44+ for reraises. I'll also call with suited connectors in a floating band from 54s through 87s and 86s through T8s as my lower bound. I really don't feel like I have a great handle on my plays against steals in the blinds.

Incidentally, to the rest of you, I'm not claiming that somehow I'm not capable of playing good poker with a 22% VP$IP. I know I can be profitable here and that if I'm not making any terrible preflop mistakes I'm not leaving huge wads of cash on the table either. But the thing is, if it's possible to play a wider range of hands profitably (and all indications say it is, with better reads and reading ability), then I'd like to work on getting the skills necessary.

Still, as Victor said (and I still use his 21%-base screenshots to gauge some things now and then), it's more important not to be making any huge -EV mistakes than to try to squeeze every last dime from the table. And I'm pretty sure with a lot of hands I'd end up folding when I'm ahead or calling when I'm behind far too often, cutting into the profitability of current winning hands.

So I'm not really stressing over this, but I am interested in improving my play and in having an idea of what direction my game's going in both the near and distant future.