A few hands for discussion

[ilya]

Some of these are versions of hands I've actually played, some are made up. Anyway, all thoughts appreciated.

Hand 1

Button: 3600
Hero (SB): 2200
BB: 1200
UTG: 1000

Blinds just went up to 200/400, UTG pushes, how much ICM edge against UTG's range does Hero need to call?


Hand 2:

UTG: 800
CO: 1400
Button: 1200
Hero (SB): 1300
BB: 3300

Blinds 50/100, folded to Hero with AJo.


Hand 3:

7-handed, 25/50 blinds, Hero (SB) has 700, BB has 1100, everyone else has a reasonable stack. Folded to Hero with 55.


Hand 4:

8-handed, blinds 25/50. UTG (1200) limps. SB completes. Hero (750) checks in BB with 88. Flop Q74r. SB checks, Hero...?


Hand 5:

blinds 75/150

Hero (UTG): 1800
MP: 1300
CO: 900
Button: 1200
SB: 1500
BB: 1300

CO is tight. Button is agressive. Hero is dealt ATs.


Hand 6:

8-handed, blinds 15/30. UTG+1(900) limps. CO (700) limps. SB (650) completes. Hero(1100) checks BB with J3o. Flop JJ8 with a two-flush. How does Hero proceed?

[microbet]

hand 1: I'm not sure how to answer the question as phrased. I think the answer is "some." I think you generally need a pretty solid hand here, like 88+, AQ+.

hand 2: I think raise to 250.

hand 3: Did you think BB was likely to raise if you completed? I don't think folding is bad, but I think pushing is probably a little better.

hand 4: Generally checks.

hand 5: folds. I'd only bet here if I thought there was no one likely to raise or even call.

[tigerite]

Hand 1. Well way I see it, you lose you are down to 1200, same as BB and far from out of it. Win and you are almost in a tie for first and should definitely get at least HU. I reckon 0.1%. But in practice I would look for 0.5%+.

Hand 2. A cast-iron push for me.
Hand 3. Standard 125/150 raise.
Hand 4. Checks to see what UTG does. But I think you should push this pf.
Hand 5. Raise to 400. See what CO and Button do respectively.
Hand 6. Check, someone on a flush draw will bet out at this more than likely with 3 others in the pot, or with a pocket pair. Then you can check-raise. Also keeps betting impetus the same.

[curtains]

Sorry to interupt but folding hand 3 is absolutely dreadful. You must play the hand, and preferably move allin. Also I got your email Ill contact you shortly!!

[curtains]

Hand 2 I move allin, Hand 5 I raise to 375.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2 I move allin, Hand 5 I raise to 375.

[/ QUOTE ]

I knew you'd say allin for hands 2 and 3. I was quite curious to hear what you'd do with the 5th hand....375 eh? Hrmmmm...

I'm psychic, /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

Yugoslav

[microbet]

Well, I did say pushing was better, but thanks, I'll feel more confident about it next time.

[microbet]

I missed hand 6.

I'm on the fence. I was having huge success for a while by making about a 1/2 to 3/4 pot bet when I flopped a set, but lately it seems everyone is folding to it.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I did say pushing was better, but thanks, I'll feel more confident about it next time.

[/ QUOTE ]

No I know, it's just that folding isnt even an option. Check out the K+S charts. The number for 55 shuold be astronomical. It's so high that it's not even worth memorizing.

[curtains]

btw I spoke too quickly, Id move allin with ATs.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

btw I spoke too quickly, Id move allin with ATs.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the curtains I expected!

Hmmm....if I can predict what you're gonna do..why don't I just play like you???? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

I could be world champion! bwhahahah ship it!

Yugoslav

[curtains]

Problem with raising to 400-450 in the ATs problem is its really annoying to fold to a reraise from most of the table.

[Nottom]

Hand 1: Not much, I'm gonna push with a pretty wide range here. The pot odds are amazing and if you lose you are still ahead of the BB who will be in a terrible spot next hand. If you win you are now tied for the lead which is always nice.

Hand 2: Somewhat BB dependant. I'm definately raising probably all-in.

Hand 3: This is actually really close to the last hand. I think I'm even more likely to just go ahead and push here.

Hand 4: Bets 100.

Hand 5: I think I close my eyes and push.

Hand 6: I bet out, but proceed somewhat cautiously. I'm not looking to get in a raising war with no kicker.

[Newt_Buggs]

hand 2: Am I the only one that might raise to around 300, and probably call a reraise all in?
hand 3: In an actual game I'de usually raise this to around 150, but I think that it would be better if I just started pushing this.
hand 4: unless I have a good read on UTG that says otherwise I'm always betting here.
hand 5: depends on the table/buy in. With the reads that you have so far, I might just raise to around 400 and call the button if he pushes but fold if one of the bigger stacks raises. I definitly wouldn't mind open pushing though.
hand 6: I'm usually checking to see how the action unfolds.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, I did say pushing was better, but thanks, I'll feel more confident about it next time.

[/ QUOTE ]

No I know, it's just that folding isnt even an option. Check out the K+S charts. The number for 55 shuold be astronomical. It's so high that it's not even worth memorizing.

[/ QUOTE ]

All right, I want to learn how to read this KS chart. Can you help? Let's use Hand 3 (55 hand) and Hand 5 (ATs hand).

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3:

7-handed, 25/50 blinds, Hero (SB) has 700, BB has 1100, everyone else has a reasonable stack. Folded to Hero with 55.


[/ QUOTE ]

KS Chart
Hand N_call N_fold P|call Max Stack for EV > 0
55 153 1072 0.389493 98.629873

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 5:

blinds 75/150

Hero (UTG): 1800
MP: 1300
CO: 900
Button: 1200
SB: 1500
BB: 1300

CO is tight. Button is agressive. Hero is dealt ATs.

[/ QUOTE ]

KS Chart
Hand N_call N_fold P|call Max Stack for EV > 0
ATs 108 1117 0.385544 138.913083

KS Chart (http://www.decf.berkeley.edu/~chubukov/rankings.html)

Some questions.
1) N_call/N_fold equals 1225. Shouldn't this number equal 1326?

I've got more, but I gotta run...

Scuba
PS. Ilya, I really dig Hand 1. The problem is, of course, is hand range of villain, which is very read dependent. The benefit, on the other hand is that you're getting 2:1 pot odds for 36% of your stack. Furthermore you need to weigh the probability that BB calls, as he loses the maximum amount of equity by folding. A clash between those two stacks is the maximum benefit for hero IMO. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[curtains]

You can only use K+S chart directly for heads up. THe number 98 next to the 55 means that you divide that number by 2, and thats how many BB's youd have to have to make it breakeven EV to simply open push with your hand face up on the table.

Of course you have a hell of a lot less than 49 BB's which is why folding is so terrible here.


Also to newtbuggs....of course raising to 300 is fine with AJo, its just not my style. Always hard to quantify whether stuff like that is better than open pushing.

[microbet]

The 98 and the 138 aren't the number of hands that fold. They are the number of small blinds that the SB should be willing to raise all-in with against a BB (no one else in the pot) even if the BB could see the SB's cards and reacted perfectly.

It doesn't apply to the AT hand because there are multiple opponents yet to act.

I believe the numbers do not take tournament equity into account and as such are truly accurate only for HU or cash games.

Curtains is saying, (I would say "I believe", but I'm more sure than that) that the 98 SBs - hence 48 BBs - is sooo much larger than the stack you have that it isn't close and not worth considering other factors.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]

Curtains is saying, (I would say "I believe", but I'm more sure than that) that the 98 SBs - hence 48 BBs - is sooo much larger than the stack you have that it isn't close and not worth considering other factors.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes thats what Im saying /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Curtains is saying, (I would say "I believe", but I'm more sure than that) that the 98 SBs - hence 48 BBs - is sooo much larger than the stack you have that it isn't close and not worth considering other factors.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now I also know why it's said, "it's not even close." It's so obvious where it comes from now.

Curtains, to some extent, I thought you used the KS charts to articulate some of your decisions for other non-SB decisions. Was I wrong?

[curtains]

scuba you are correct but thats much more complicated and you cant figure out by just glancing at the K+S chart. I have my own chart that is much more detailed than the K+S dealing with every hand from the button to 3 off the button.

[lastchance]

[ QUOTE ]

scuba you are correct but thats much more complicated and you cant figure out by just glancing at the K+S chart. I have my own chart that is much more detailed than the K+S dealing with every hand from the button to 3 off the button.

[/ QUOTE ]
Please give us this chart. You'd be doing the 2+2 SNG community a big favor. I can't believe this exists and I don't have it.

[curtains]

I cant just give it away, its extremely valuable and I attribute a lot of my success to it. Maybe I could sell it but youd be better served just working it out on your own. Set a day or two aside and try to figure out how to do it. Its well worth it and is probably the most important thing that has led to my recent success in sit and gos, above everything else.

Other important factors were eastbays program and just overall experience and sharpening of my instincts.

[lastchance]

[ QUOTE ]
I cant just give it away, its extremely valuable and I attribute a lot of my success to it. Maybe I could sell it but youd be better served just working it out on your own. Set a day or two aside and try to figure out how to do it. Its well worth it and is probably the most important thing that has led to my recent success in sit and gos, above everything else.

Other important factors were eastbays program and just overall experience and sharpening of my instincts.

[/ QUOTE ]
But I don't have 1337 programming skills. And I'm lazy. :P But mostly, I don't have 1337 programming skills.

You obviously didn't do this by hand, right?

Did you account for the factors of people behind you overcalling? (which would be pretty slim)

[microbet]

I just started working on some charts. I might just show them to curtains so he can crown me chart making champion of the world.

[microbet]

It'll be like that Simpson's episode where Homer does great with the home-made bat and pretty soon the whole team has a bunch of crappy home-made bats.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

But I don't have 1337 programming skills. And I'm lazy. :P But mostly, I don't have 1337 programming skills.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that the programming skills required to handle this would be too formidable. Probably the biggest pain in the ass is getting the equity of each of the preflop matchups in some form that would be useful. Aside from that, it doesn't seem very difficult.

[microbet]

I could be wrong, but I don't think Curtains is programming champion of the world.