TDL 2-7: 3 betting with a 7

[randomstumbl]

I'll preface this by saying recent experience may be coloring my perception.

How strong of a hand do you need to three-bet the river against a typical player? Generally, I need about an 875 to bet, an 864 to raise and a 76532 to three bet. Obviously, the specific opponent changes things and also how many cards each player drew.

So, what do you need to three bet the river? What other considerations are important when deciding to three bet the river?

[Luv2DriveTT]

Betting an 875 is borderline IMHO, I won't raise with an 864 unless my opponent is a stealing donk who will bet the river with a T regularly, and I'll 3-bet a 765 in 70% of all situations.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[CallYNotRaise06]

theres no perfect formula for what hands to bet raise 3 bet or cap. go with your read on the hand. in a loose table i would value bet weaker hands then you would at a tight table. and a tight table bluff more.

ive capped a 864 before againt a very loose opponent, then another time i only made it 2 bets w/ 7653 againt a more conservative opponent. only advice i can give is pay attention and play your A game.

[dibbs]

I used to give really bad players way too much action whenever I had a 7 on the river, and they pretty much always had wheels.

If I make it against a guy who draws rougher and plays worse hands I'll tend to get some more bets in. If I know the guy draws smooth, drew one on the last draw then raises me, I probably just call.

Something I have been thinking about recently is in this game you rarely see a betting war on the river, and whenever you do it is almost ALWAYS invovled with a wheel. Off the top of my head I can recall very few 2-bets on the river actually, it seems most raises are done in the middle rounds. Kind of funny how common players love getting the most bets in when they are chasing, and then chill out when they have a made hand, that's in my games though. Most river situations in this game I feel are fairly simple except in multiway pots. JMO.

[randomstumbl]

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Something I have been thinking about recently is in this game you rarely see a betting war on the river, and whenever you do it is almost ALWAYS invovled with a wheel. Off the top of my head I can recall very few 2-bets on the river actually, it seems most raises are done in the middle rounds. Kind of funny how common players love getting the most bets in when they are chasing, and then chill out when they have a made hand, that's in my games though. Most river situations in this game I feel are fairly simple except in multiway pots. JMO.

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I love the players that like to cap preflop with a two card draw and then realize I'm drawing one. They're real sweethearts.

I've found that the easiest way to have an edge is for your opponent to draw to rough hands. That's easily the biggest edge.

After that, I think a lot of players screw up the turn. There's a lot of fancy plays that win small pots and lose big ones. You've got to use them sparingly.

IMHO, the river is about the toughest street to play though. If there's a bet and a raise, that's a huge amount relative to the size of most pots. Getting one more bet in or avoiding putting that last one in can make a huge difference.

[SumZero]

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Something I have been thinking about recently is in this game you rarely see a betting war on the river, and whenever you do it is almost ALWAYS invovled with a wheel. Off the top of my head I can recall very few 2-bets on the river actually, it seems most raises are done in the middle rounds. Kind of funny how common players love getting the most bets in when they are chasing, and then chill out when they have a made hand, that's in my games though. Most river situations in this game I feel are fairly simple except in multiway pots. JMO.

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Well, it depends on the prior rounds and the draw. I'm often in big pots since I love to bet/raise early. An often occuring situation where I'll 3-bet my 7 and some 8's against most opponents is if I'm OOP and drawing 1 against an opponent who is standing pat on the last round. Now if I catch good I'll often bet (and, depending on the opponent, if I don't catch good I'll often bet too since the pot is often 5-8 times my bet don't need to win the bluff to often for it to be +EV) and now my opponent, if they've been paying attention may disrespect my bet and reraise with as bad as a 9, then I'll pop it with 7's for sure and with some 8's.

[randomstumbl]

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I'm often in big pots since I love to bet/raise early.

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The first couple weeks I played TDL on UB, I had an enormous run using basically this strategy. It really changes the entire game. The river plays completely different in a loose aggressive game than it does in a tight aggressive game.

When you make the pot big, you're correct to bluff much, much more. The more you bluff the more you can bet for value.

Unfortunately, there's a really good counter-strategy. Your opponent just has to play tight/aggressive before the first draw and then play half way decent after that. This isn't something you need to worry about right away; it's just something to think about as you start playing better competition.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

depends a lot on the opponent, against some players i may not even 3-bet a 76 and others i may 3-bet a rough 86.

[fnord_too]

Like CDC said, it's pretty player dependant. I think your hands are a fine baseline, but you need to move your lines based on previous action, too.

For instance, if you are OOP, and the turn went check/bet/raise/3-bet/cap, pat pat, bet/raise against someone who is not a maniac I am not putting in a third bet without a wheel. Point being that those lines need to move in both directions given villain and prior action.

[dibbs]

"IMHO, the river is about the toughest street to play though."

Interesting thought, I think I adhere too closely to DN's advice of calling with any decent hand (headsup) in big pots and tending to fold if the pot's smaller. It's time to filter through some HH's and see how big of a leak it is.


"After that, I think a lot of players screw up the turn. There's a lot of fancy plays that win small pots and lose big ones. You've got to use them sparingly."

Also interesting, care to elaborate?

[randomstumbl]

The turn has two text book "moves."

First, if you have a rough 9 and think your opponent has a pat hand that they'd be willing to break you can raise and stand pat. Obviously, this works better if you're in position and can watch them draw before rapping pat, but you can do it OOP too.

The problem is that bad players almost NEVER have breakable nines. They'll have hands like 97643 or 87543. They'll just call you down. Even a good player will seldom break a hand that beats you. I still think the play is valuable to mix up your game, but it needs to be used only occasionally and only against players that draw smooth.

The other can only be done in position. Both players draw one card on the second draw. The OOP player checks and the button bets without improving. If you do that enough, you're going to get checkraised a lot and lose a lot of information for the river. That will quickly outweight the benefit of your opponents breaking jacks and tens.

Both plays are valuable when used sparingly in specific circumstances, but ridiculiously costly when overused. I mean, how else are you going to get 2-3 bets in on the turn with 6-8 outs to win the hand.

[Gabe]

I'll bet a pair of sevens, so I also bet 9's and T's.