Turn 3-bet.

[Entity]

Villain in this question is a decent, possibly slightly too passive TAG (25/15/1.6) who seems to be limping too much preflop right now due to two players on his left playing 60% of their hands.

So on to the hand. UTG folds. TAG openlimps in MP. Loose passive Button limps along merrily. He will fold when he doesn't hit a pair/draw but otherwise is there until the river. SB folds. I check in the BB with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

Flop comes K/images/graemlins/heart.gif6/images/graemlins/heart.gif7/images/graemlins/spade.gif. I bet. TAG calls. LP calls.

Turn is the 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif. I bet. TAG raises. LP calls. I 3-bet.

Pretty standard stuff?

Rob

[clownshoes]

looks good, especially with the LP in the middle
TAG could easily be doing this with a K or two pair

[GetThere1Time]

It's the right play though I wouldn't do it because I'm a giant vag. What's your move if the TAG caps it?

[sam h]

I would not bet the flop.

[Drontier]

THAT WAS ME U DOUCHE. I was slightly tilty from losing all my money so i called ur 3 bet.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
THAT WAS ME U DOUCHE. I was slightly tilty from losing all my money so i called ur 3 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously? I was a bit surprised you openlimped w/that hand.

Rob

[Drontier]

I was too, so I went back to check hand history lol.

[Surfbullet]

I don't bet the flop, but given that I made it to the turn I 3bet since the TAG will raise many worse hands (top pair, 2pair, set). Additionally, many TAGs will play a flush draw aggressively on the flop, so I think it is less likely that he hit a flush.

Surf

[Redd]

Could someone elaborate on why we lead the flop here?

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
Could someone elaborate on why we lead the flop here?

[/ QUOTE ]

the possible flush draw is certainly a deterrent, but it seems like a basic semibluff...people will fold a lot on Kxx flops, plus you have some outs if you get called

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Could someone elaborate on why we lead the flop here?

[/ QUOTE ]

It may be a bad bet. I'm not sold yet either way. This flop isn't going to hit a limping TAG very often (he'll often fold better hands on this flop in a pot this small) and the loose passive, while he is a detraction from the bet, will fold when he has nothing (he would fold A4o here, for example).

It's basically just a stab at a pot. I bluff-lead a lot of flops in unraised pots (taking stabs is what most people call it).

However, the board is coordinated enough here that it might be a mistake -- two hearts, a 6 and a 7. On a K64 flop against this sort of lineup I have a lot of success betting out with just about anything.

Rob

[PokerBob]

I really don't like your flop bet at all.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't like your flop bet at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

What sort of flops are you taking stabs at? Is K67 so significantly different from K64? Or do you not take stabs?

Rob

[PokerBob]

I just think you are getting raised here too often. I'd check and hope to get a freebie.

[Lurker4]

[ QUOTE ]
However, the board is coordinated enough here that it might be a mistake -- two hearts, a 6 and a 7. On a K64 flop against this sort of lineup I have a lot of success betting out with just about anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I don't like the flop bet for this reason. This hits way too many of a loose-passive's limping hands, that your fold equity is not enough given the pot size. Also, TAG is also in the pot so I don't think you take down the pot often enough for this to work.

[PokerBob]

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I really don't like your flop bet at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

What sort of flops are you taking stabs at?

[/ QUOTE ]

If that board is rainbow I bet it. I just hate the TAG in there, as he is much more likely to raise here IMO. If both limpers are passive, then I think a bet is a little safer.

[Lurker4]

I think turn 3-bet is pretty standard; charge LP more for drawing; and like others have said TAG will raise a bunch of non-flush hands here and likely would have raised some/most flush draws on the flop.

[Entity]

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I really don't like your flop bet at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

What sort of flops are you taking stabs at?

[/ QUOTE ]

If that board is rainbow I bet it. I just hate the TAG in there, as he is much more likely to raise here IMO. If both limpers are passive, then I think a bet is a little safer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Bob,

I don't think you're more likely to get raised because of the TAG. I think you're less likely, in fact.

Rob

[Subfallen]

This is the sort of flop bet I make when I'm running over the table, but wouldn't do cold. Even then, it's not disastrous. Turn 3-bet is standard IMO, nh.

[Drontier]

i cry : (. i cant believe i open limped with that [censored]. shows what tilt can do to you. but im wondering if hands like that can be +EV for limping since ure getting freaking 10 way action every hand. and the ppl wereh orrible

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
This is the sort of flop bet I make when I'm running over the table, but wouldn't do cold. Even then, it's not disastrous. Turn 3-bet is standard IMO, nh.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've talked to a few people who like the flop bet (since we're calling anyway) and a few who like a flop check-and-see. I prefer a bet here (obviously) but would like to hear more about why people don't like it. I had been running over the table, but I don't know if I was running it over to the degree that my folding equity would be increased incredibly here.

Rob

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]


I've talked to a few people who like the flop bet (since we're calling anyway) and a few who like a flop check-and-see. I prefer a bet here (obviously) but would like to hear more about why people don't like it. I had been running over the table, but I don't know if I was running it over to the degree that my folding equity would be increased incredibly here.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

I would like the bet if it's a rainbow flop. The 2 flush cards give people 1 more reason to call, especially since some will call with Ahx or Axh.

BTW, I check-fold this. Why would people check-call here in such a small pot?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I've talked to a few people who like the flop bet (since we're calling anyway) and a few who like a flop check-and-see. I prefer a bet here (obviously) but would like to hear more about why people don't like it. I had been running over the table, but I don't know if I was running it over to the degree that my folding equity would be increased incredibly here.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

I would like the bet if it's a rainbow flop. The 2 flush cards give people 1 more reason to call, especially since some will call with Ahx or Axh.

BTW, I check-fold this. Why would people check-call here in such a small pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think people call here with AhX very often, and most of those AhX's would have been raised preflop anyway (not all though). The reason I suggested we'd likely be correct to call (I guess we don't have to call) is that people aren't only betting with Kings, so we've generally got 10 outs, even in a small pot.

Rob

[sthief09]

I don't get how people don't like the flop bet. it's very likely he open limped with a JTs, 22, 33 type hand that missed the flop but has him beat.

[sthief09]

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I really don't like your flop bet at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

What sort of flops are you taking stabs at?

[/ QUOTE ]

If that board is rainbow I bet it. I just hate the TAG in there, as he is much more likely to raise here IMO. If both limpers are passive, then I think a bet is a little safer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Bob,

I don't think you're more likely to get raised because of the TAG. I think you're less likely, in fact.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]


straight out of HPFAP

[Noodles]

I dont see why most are against the flop bet,just because it is 2 suited,so what? so TAGs will call every 2 suited board?with the K there it doesnt leave many outs for overcards,are you are only up against 2 people,
I would try it,if someone bets the flop youll have to call anyway so why not try to steal?

[Noodles]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't get how people don't like the flop bet

[/ QUOTE ]

I think people are against because of the flush draw,like the tap and loosie are going to connect with any flush draw,

I like the flop bet,go for it ,why not?

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont see why most are against the flop bet,just because it is 2 suited,so what? so TAGs will call every 2 suited board?with the K there it doesnt leave many outs for overcards,are you are only up against 2 people,
I would try it,if someone bets the flop youll have to call anyway so why not try to steal?

[/ QUOTE ]

There are 2 reasons I don't like a flop bet with 2 suited on the board versus a rainbow board:

1) less fold equity
2) greater chance of getting raised by a flush draw and having to pay 2 bets on this flop in a very small pot.

[Noodles]

[ QUOTE ]
just think you are getting raised here too often

[/ QUOTE ]

Bob,why exactly do you feel youll get raised in this spot,the TAG limped in, and the description was that he was slightly passive,
ok if a maniac were in this pot id check,but not with this guy,

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
just think you are getting raised here too often

[/ QUOTE ]

Bob,why exactly do you feel youll get raised in this spot,the TAG limped in, and the description was that he was slightly passive,
ok if a maniac were in this pot id check,but not with this guy,

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on the descriptions, why not check the flop and maybe we'll get a free card???

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
just think you are getting raised here too often

[/ QUOTE ]

Bob,why exactly do you feel youll get raised in this spot,the TAG limped in, and the description was that he was slightly passive,
ok if a maniac were in this pot id check,but not with this guy,

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on the descriptions, why not check the flop and maybe we'll get a free card???

[/ QUOTE ]

If we check and get a free card, a bet likely would've taken the pot down there.

Rob

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]
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just think you are getting raised here too often

[/ QUOTE ]

Bob,why exactly do you feel youll get raised in this spot,the TAG limped in, and the description was that he was slightly passive,
ok if a maniac were in this pot id check,but not with this guy,

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on the descriptions, why not check the flop and maybe we'll get a free card???

[/ QUOTE ]

If we check and get a free card, a bet likely would've taken the pot down there.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, duh. That's what makes psychics such great poker players. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

You could make that statement on any hand, but that doesn't mean that a bet is correct.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
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just think you are getting raised here too often

[/ QUOTE ]

Bob,why exactly do you feel youll get raised in this spot,the TAG limped in, and the description was that he was slightly passive,
ok if a maniac were in this pot id check,but not with this guy,

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on the descriptions, why not check the flop and maybe we'll get a free card???

[/ QUOTE ]

If we check and get a free card, a bet likely would've taken the pot down there.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, duh. That's what makes psychics such great poker players. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

You could make that statement on any hand, but that doesn't mean that a bet is correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're telling me that I don't take this down with a flop bet ~15% of the time here (I need 1 in 4.5 to immediately break even, but I still have between 4 and 10 outs, depending on who calls)?

Rob

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]

So you're telling me that I don't take this down with a flop bet ~15% of the time here (I need 1 in 4.5 to immediately break even, but I still have between 4 and 10 outs, depending on who calls)?

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting this flop is close. I'm not saying it's bad. I would bet the rainbow flop most of the time against this lineup. The 2-suited flop would depend more on the texture of the game. My table image would determine whether or not betting this flop is +EV. I'm merely stating the reasons why I wouldn't bet this flop as opposed to the rainbow flavor.

BTW, if I thought they would fold more than 15.5% of the time, then I would be betting any 2 cards here.

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, if I thought they would fold more than 15.5% of the time, then I would be betting any 2 cards here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes I think you should be betting any 2 in these situations. Table image and frequency dependant... and of course vs people who can fold to a flop bet.

I certainly think that takeing a stab here is fine. Sometimes Rob will take it down without a fight. The fact that he has outs make it perfectly fine.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]

However, the board is coordinated enough here that it might be a mistake -- two hearts, a 6 and a 7. On a K64 flop against this sort of lineup I have a lot of success betting out with just about anything.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

If you get called in one spot, how are you generally playing the turn and/or river?

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
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just think you are getting raised here too often

[/ QUOTE ]

Bob,why exactly do you feel youll get raised in this spot,the TAG limped in, and the description was that he was slightly passive,
ok if a maniac were in this pot id check,but not with this guy,

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on the descriptions, why not check the flop and maybe we'll get a free card???

[/ QUOTE ]

If we check and get a free card, a bet likely would've taken the pot down there.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, duh. That's what makes psychics such great poker players. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

You could make that statement on any hand, but that doesn't mean that a bet is correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

this makes no sense.. you want to check since we'll often get a free card, but also agree that a bet could take it if their cards are so bad to give up that free card.

doesn't this mean you agree that a bet will often win the pot right there?

[sthief09]

in general situations I like the 3-bet, but considering I'd think his open limpign range is suited connectors and small pairs, you're looking at a flush a lot more often than a set or smaller straight. the only other hand I could see is KTo or K9s slowplaying the flop, which is weird. maybe K8?

[donger]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is the sort of flop bet I make when I'm running over the table, but wouldn't do cold. Even then, it's not disastrous. Turn 3-bet is standard IMO, nh.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've talked to a few people who like the flop bet (since we're calling anyway) and a few who like a flop check-and-see. I prefer a bet here (obviously) but would like to hear more about why people don't like it. I had been running over the table, but I don't know if I was running it over to the degree that my folding equity would be increased incredibly here.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

You mentioned earliler that you were calling anyway if it was bet, so you might as well bet it. Against this crew (a TAG beaten into submission by the cold calling fish behind him and one of the fish), a bet is probably a king more than 50% of the time. I am probably either stabbing at this if the LPP isn't a compulsive peeler, but I'm not so crazy about 'calling anyway.' Based on your description, the fish isn't betting a 6,7, or flush draw, and the TAG is spun and currently passive but probably still isn't limping with much with a 6 or 7 in it, being 25% VP$IP.

Here, the pot is smallish, so a stab isn't so bad, but any variety of check-calling is pretty bad, in my opinion.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
in general situations I like the 3-bet, but considering I'd think his open limpign range is suited connectors and small pairs, you're looking at a flush a lot more often than a set or smaller straight. the only other hand I could see is KTo or K9s slowplaying the flop, which is weird. maybe K8?

[/ QUOTE ]

K6s. The TAG has already posted in this thread and said he was tilting.

Rob

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
in general situations I like the 3-bet, but considering I'd think his open limpign range is suited connectors and small pairs, you're looking at a flush a lot more often than a set or smaller straight. the only other hand I could see is KTo or K9s slowplaying the flop, which is weird. maybe K8?

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't KTo or K9s raising here preflop?

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
just think you are getting raised here too often

[/ QUOTE ]

Bob,why exactly do you feel youll get raised in this spot,the TAG limped in, and the description was that he was slightly passive,
ok if a maniac were in this pot id check,but not with this guy,

[/ QUOTE ]

Because (a) I am a pussy (b) I like free stuff (c) I am ALWAYS up against a flush draw. Always. I could be wrong, but I still check. If it is a leak in my game, I think (hope) it is a small one

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
in general situations I like the 3-bet, but considering I'd think his open limpign range is suited connectors and small pairs, you're looking at a flush a lot more often than a set or smaller straight. the only other hand I could see is KTo or K9s slowplaying the flop, which is weird. maybe K8?

[/ QUOTE ]

K6s. The TAG has already posted in this thread and said he was tilting.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]


well that's pathetic then