Low vs. mid-limits, modified drops, etc!!! (Rick?) [Archive]

Rick Nebiolo

02-15-2003, 03:49 PM

Dan S,

You wrote: "I was hoping Rick (given his duality as both a winning player and a house employee) and others could help me out:"

Who said I'm a winning player? I break even! /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

"1) I understand (to a large extent) why lower limit games are raked/dropped and mid-limit games and up are time charged."

In Los Angeles, all lower limit games are dropped rather than raked (although the Normandie has something that emulates a rake). A drop means that the entire collection is taken at once. A rake is taken in increments at pot size thresholds. In Los Angeles (and generally in California) you cannot make rakes based on a percentage of pot size.

In mid limits and up most places in Los Angeles take time but a few are dropped. Most yellow chip stud games (or at least eight or better-I don't play much high stud) in town are dropped. The Bike's 10/20 and 20/40 holdem game is dropped at $3 for 9 or 8 players, $2 for 7 or 6 players, and $1 for 5 players or less (IMO this is too much five handed or less since five handed is where you used to get time a time collection break). Note that 30/60 and above is still collected time.

"Why is it that it cost $20 an hour to play $9/18 and below in LA?.

To be fair the figure of $20 per hour is high. You shouldn't include the $1 jackpot drop since most of it (clubs withhold administration costs of about 18%) is returned as jackpots. For the drop, I'd guesstimate the Bike's 8/16 holdem game gets about 25 full $4 drops per hour, 5 short handed drops of $2, and 2 modified drops of $1 with eight players sitting in on average. That is about $14 per hour. Of course, tight players play less since they win fewer pots.

"...while 10/10 can be played for $10 an hour with free food (at least at the Bike and HP)?"

At Hollywood Barbara Gallamore and her friends kept the heat on management to keep that game going. She correctly made it clear that that crowd didn't want jackpots or a drop. In return, Hollywood Park got a core of extremely nice people as regular players who would rarely consider jackpot games and felt uncomfortable with the blind structure at 15/30 holdem. These players would have taken their business elsewhere if the 10/20 was not available. Collection of $10 per hour made sense since 20/40 is $14 per hour and 15/30 is $12 per hour at Hollywood Park. BTW, Barbara Gallamore now hosts the Bike's new 10/20 holdem game.

Regarding time collections, you should get enough half collections (when the game is short) or no collections (on a new game or when you enter after the light or dealer push) to reduce your collections by about 10% or so. One quibble I have with Speedracer and others is that they usually don't compare drops and time collections using the proper adjustments.

"Good management decision? Player apathy? Player stupidity?"

The jackpot games cater to the lottery mentality. Unfortunately, if you put a lower limit non-jackpot game next to a jackpot game, the non-jackpot game generally "nits up." Because of this, I'd rather play jackpot when playing low limit (usually as a prop but sometimes I play 6/12 kill Omaha or green chip holdem while waiting for a yellow chip seat).

"(See the threads on RGP by Rick, Speedracer, and Bjgkaroake for more info...possibly the one thing on RGP worth checking out)."

The Speedracer posts are usually "spot on" and management takes notice. "Speedracer" previously posted as "World Class Poker Player" (that is no secret). You may have guessed his new nom de plume (WCCP: You just can't hide your writing style by sifting it in and out of a English to Chinese back to English language translator /forums/images/icons/grin.gif ) but WCPP/Speedracer needs to keep plausible deniability.

For my "rake rants" use Google's advanced group search for rec.gambling.poker. Author is "Rick Nebiolo" and search for the word rake or drop in the text. Barbara Gallamore usually joins in these threads.

"2) The Bike employs a modified drop on 20/40 stud/8, low limit hold 'em, etc."

We also have a modified drop on 10/20 and 20/40 holdem. Note that I have campaigned to eliminate it if possible (i.e., no flop no drop) or reduce it from $1 (at least tied for the best in town) to 50 cents. There are legal and city approval issues so no luck so far. The good news is all our stud modified drops (taken when fourth street is not dealt) are 50 cents so we were able to use this in the stud/8 game. As a result, our 20/40 stud eight game plays very well short (Hero loves short handed stud/8!). This makes money for the casino by keeping a game or second game going that will feed other games or absorb other players when other games break late at night.

Once again in fairness, some other clubs have a modified drop. For example, Hawaiian Gardens will drop "only" $2 in their 6/12 or 8/16 holdem on no flop. The Normandie has a system (at least when I checked last August) where they take their low limit drops after "events" to get around the pot size triggers. In 4/8 holdem they take $1 before the hand starts, the $1 jackpot drop on the flop, the next $1 on a called bet on the flop, and the last $1 on a called raise on the flop OR a called bet on the turn or river. I like this system except for taking the $1 before the hand starts (I also hate the fact they have only one blind ? something I was able to successfully lobby to change at the Bike). The Commerce is the one club that really rapes the players when there is no flop (the full collection (drop and jackpot) is taken on a blind steal and the entire small blind is dropped when the small blind gives up to the big blind ? that is $3 in a 9/18 holdem!).

My boss, in playing devil's advocate, once asked, "Why doesn't this hurt the Commerce?" My answer was that it probably does, but their size and location advantage masks this mistake (by location advantage I mean most players have to drive past another casino to get to the Bike). In addition, with many games going at the Commerce, if a game starts tight (generating hands with no flop), the tight players quickly change out to looser games. When you have fewer games going you don't have this luxury. I'd have to say that my immediate supervisors have been supportive of my attempts to fix structures and collections.

That being said, our green chip games are probably a bit stronger than the Commerce's these days, but they have more 9/18 games than we have 8/16 games (their 9/18 is about equivalent to our 8/16) and more 4/8 games (although we usually have two 4/8's and several months ago we had none).

"Anyone know the legality/feasability of this in Norcal?"

Don't know much about Norcal but I do want to point out that drop and collection amounts and techniques are agreed to in conjunction with the Los Angeles sheriff and the local town (i.e., Bell Gardens, City of Commerce, Gardena, Hawaiian Gardens, Inglewood and so on). The Commerce Casino may want to improve their methods but the holdup may be with the city. That being said, I'm convinced all Los Angeles clubs and the cities that depend on card club revenue would do FAR better if they could eliminate the "front loading" of the rake. When a card room manager indicates that he rarely gets complaints about rake, I point to an empty table and say: "The customers that would complain would be sitting right there!" As you know from my RGP posts/rants, I feel Los Angeles clubs under-perform relative to the potential market based on the huge population base within a reasonably short drive.

BTW, both my boss and my best friend's wife said that if you ask me what time it is, I'll tell you how to build a watch. Do you think they may be right? /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

Regards,

Rick