live 1/2 nl QQ hand (100$ max buy in)

[meleader2]

i'm BB with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif and raise it to 15$ preflop and get 3 callers.

pot is 57$ after the 3$ rake.

Flop:

8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif

I'm first to act and open with 35$. First guy calls (known to chase flushes) and other 2 fold.

Pot is ~125$

Turn:

[8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif] 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif

Stacks at this point:

Me ~350$
Villain ~60$

Fearing the flush I check, he checks behind (any bet i make would pot commit him if he calls...the pot is too huge for me to fold if he raises...):

[8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif] 5/images/graemlins/club.gif

My action is..........

[Ghazban]

What was your plan if he bet the turn?

[meleader2]

[ QUOTE ]
What was your plan if he bet the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

that's what bothers me. i would've probably debated and debated until people got pissed then mucked...it'd be a push from him for sure cuz of his stack size, and with the 3 callers any one of them coulda hit a set.

I'm assuming ur response will be "that would be a mistake"?

I sat for a real long time on the turn when it was my turn to act holding a 25$ chip thinking about chucking it in before i checked.

[Ghazban]

I don't particularly like the size of your flop bet. You're betting just over half pot into 3 other people. If just one calls, anybody after that one has great odds to call to see one more card on a flush draw. If you'd bet more on the flop and still gotten this one caller, you would clearly push the turn no matter what hit as he'd be committed and would have made a bad call just on a flush draw (except AhKh) and pushing any turn would be +EV.

[meleader2]

what if i'm reraised on the flop....do i let it go? or am i commited at that point. seems like a donk move.

[bobhalford]

I think you have to bet at least 2/3 of the pot in order for it to be a mistake for villain to call with a flush draw. By betting 2/3 of the pot, you are giving him 5-2 odds to call. I bet strong on this flop.

[djoyce003]

full pot the flop and the rest is straight forward. What are you afraid of on that flop.

[meleader2]

you guys are kidding right? "what are u afraid of on that flop" "bet 2/3 on the flop to drive the flush draws out"

grrrrrrrrrreat advice, if he doesn't have a set. what am i afraid of on the flop?? 22, 88, 44, 82, 84, 42. betting pot will make it REAL hard to fold. betting 2/3 on flop is 40$. i bet 35$. do some math.

[theben]

push the flop

[theben]

if you full pot, you are going to be stuck regardless of what falls

with a 35$ bet, you have half your stack in there. that puts so much in, its going to be too hard to fold on a safe turn

i say push and hope theres no set. or you could just give up, or shoot for a flop CR-all in if the table is aggr. enough. but w/ that flop and the callers, you probably wont get a bet behind u

[Wayfare]

Check raise the flop all-in.

As played, push the river.

[bobhalford]

If you think you are up against a set every time with a big pair on a raggety flop, you are playing scared. I really don't know why you would think the guy has a set. U say he likes to chase flushes, well, make him pay to chase.

[meleader2]

[ QUOTE ]
if you full pot, you are going to be stuck regardless of what falls

with a 35$ bet, you have half your stack in there. that puts so much in, its going to be too hard to fold on a safe turn

i say push and hope theres no set. or you could just give up, or shoot for a flop CR-all in if the table is aggr. enough. but w/ that flop and the callers, you probably wont get a bet behind u

[/ QUOTE ]


half my stack huh? you should reread the original entry.

[meleader2]

ok so finally we're at my river play. this is where i think i botched this. Everyone so far says to put him all in for 60$?

[Wayfare]

I really dont like the flop bet because it commits you without information and without giving the opponent a chance to make a big mistake. It also doesn't protect the big pot you have created preflop.

[Ghazban]

The size of the flop bet cannot be discussed intelligently without knowing the sizes of the other stacks that called the preflop raise. If they are all as short as this guy, pushing would be fine. If some of them are deeper than hero, 2/3-full pot is better as a push would only get called by a set.

Wayfare's plan of check/raising the flop all-in (welcome back BTW) is great if you can rely on somebody to take a stab. In casino 1/2 games, I don't think you can assume this will happen (depends on opponents, of course).

[meleader2]

[ QUOTE ]
The size of the flop bet cannot be discussed intelligently without knowing the sizes of the other stacks that called the preflop raise. If they are all as short as this guy, pushing would be fine. If some of them are deeper than hero, 2/3-full pot is better as a push would only get called by a set.

Wayfare's plan of check/raising the flop all-in (welcome back BTW) is great if you can rely on somebody to take a stab. In casino 1/2 games, I don't think you can assume this will happen (depends on opponents, of course).

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. So I have table covered preflop ~$400. The other 2 callers were ~100$, 1 was real tight. I got both of them to fold as you all know. I don't see how my 35$ bet really commits me, though. The only way it commits me now is the size of the pot, which was bloated preflop cuz of the other callers.

The c/r all in on the flop would only work if someone flopped top pair. More likely though it would be checked if I checked, because I raised. a common line at that table was "checked to the raiser" almost every time.

[meleader2]

[ QUOTE ]
I really dont like the flop bet because it commits you without information and without giving the opponent a chance to make a big mistake. It also doesn't protect the big pot you have created preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i do not understand what you mean by protecting the pot.

[chumdawg]

You're making this way harder than it needs to be. Though you didn't say so explicity, I'm assuming that two people limped (it might help the analysis to know where they limped from), the small blind completed, you bumped it up to $15, and they all called.

You don't mention if that's a standard opening raise for this table, but I'm kinda thinking it's a little on the high side, based on the stacks at the table and the fact that it went all the way around with just two people limping.

So at this point, when they all call your raise, and then you see that flop, you should be loving this. You have shown serious strength pre-flop, and now you have the opportunity to announce to your opponents that if they want to continue on they are going to have to put all their chips in the middle. I don't bet one chip less than the pot here. Chances are very, very good that you end the hand right then and there. If someone plays back at you, you can either curse your luck that they called off 15% of their stack with pocket eights, and fold, or you can close your eyes and hope they have jacks or tens and gamble it up. But the way you have described this game, I don't think you should worry about getting as many of your chips out there as possible.

On a side note, I certainly hope that if you were going to bet the turn, it wasn't going to be only $25.

[meleader2]

I always bet the standard raise for the table.

I never underbet any street that i've previously bet prior. It would've been 50$ had I decided to bet.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
I always bet the standard raise for the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean if the standard opener is $10, you'll make it $10 from any position with any number of limpers?

[meleader2]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I always bet the standard raise for the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean if the standard opener is $10, you'll make it $10 from any position with any number of limpers?

[/ QUOTE ]

no need for sarcasm! I know how to bet....now, at least. if u talked to me 2 months ago I'd have no clue and you'd laugh at me.

[chumdawg]

I thought you said you thought for a real long time on the turn with one green in your hand and were thinking about chunking it in there. (By the way, that seems to me like an excellent way to encourage him to put the rest of his stack in there and put you to a tough decision, no matter what his cards are. He probably doesn't interpret your ultimate check as a made nut flush that is thinking about the best way to get value. He probably interprets it for exactly what it was.)

But regardless, it doesn't matter what you bet on the prior street. There is nothing to gain by betting $50 when he has only $60 behind. Either put him in there or don't bet at all.

[meleader2]

That's why I checked.

[Ghazban]

I still don't know what you meant by "I always bet the standard raise for the table". If you're opening for $15 because that's what other people are opening for, that's a terrible reason. If you're opening for $15 because that will usually get you the number of callers you'd like to get with a given hand based on what you've seen other people call other raise sizes with, that's a much better reason.

[meleader2]

that's another unsure point. the standard was 10$, so i went for 15$...sometimes there's a 25$ raise and someone got 4 callers, and one point i raised to 10$ and got no callers.

It wasn't a tough table, but it was an uncertain table when it came time to bet to get HU.

[chumdawg]

Okay, a few things...

If you were first to act on the flop (which I missed before), then the SB wasn't one of the three who called your raise. So the pot wasn't $57 after the $3 rake. Were there any other limpers who folded that perhaps you forgot to mention?

See, it really helps to know what position these guys are in, how many were at the table, etc. I'm guessing that the "first guy to call" was under the gun or close to it, but maybe I'm wrong. And now I'm guessing that we have the CO and the button in the hand with us, but maybe I'm wrong there, too. This information would help. It changes the dynamics of the hand. The more people left to act after these callers, the more they like their hand (or so you'd think).

Also, how long had you been playing together? I see you ran your stack up nicely from the $100 buyin to $350+. Did any of these people pay you off? What kind of hands did you win? One or two big ones, or several smaller ones? In other words, what is your image at the table?

Have people in this game been raising from the BB when it's limped around to them? If so, have they taken the pot down? In other words, might they think you are on a steal?

Finally, I'm just going to say that if you have that much cushion above the buy-in, and everyone else in the hand is right at $100, I don't think you should worry too much about losing $100 with your queens on that flop. Sounds like you won't have much trouble getting it back if you lose, if you've been playing as well against them as your stack might indicate.