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View Full Version : A basketball Rules Question (with $50 riding on the outcome)


SossMan
07-11-2005, 11:11 AM
I play basketball at 5am 3 times a week at my gym. The same bunch of crappy old dudes, crafty old dudes (there was a legit hook shot this morning) and good, young high school varsity level players.

So here's the play and the argument that ensued (these facts are not disputed):

Player A drives the lane
Player A goes up for a lay up
On his way up, Player B swipes at the ball and gets a piece of it.
The swipe was enough to make Player A lose control of the ball in the air (both hands were off the ball and the ball was in the air being touched by nobody)
While still in the air, Player A regains control of the ball.
Player A lands with both hands on the ball, passes the ball to a teammate who drains a 3 to end the game.

Here's the argument:

1) It's a Jump ball since he didn't let the ball bounce to the ground
2) It's a travelling violation since he didn't ever let the ball bounce to the ground
3) It's a non-call and a live ball, therefore the bucket counts


We have $50 riding on the outcome (not here, but I wanted to see if I was on the correct side of this commonly disputed call).

What's the call?

TheWorstPlayer
07-11-2005, 11:14 AM
3 and it's not close. If he goes up and comes down without losing control of the ball, but gets tied up, it's a jump ball. If he goes up and comes down without losing control of the ball and without getting tied up, it's a travel. If he goes up and loses control of the ball, he may then regain control and land and it's a live ball a la Charles Smith against the Bulls.

swede123
07-11-2005, 11:17 AM
The answer is clearly 3, the ball is live with no penalty to the offensive player. What the defender did is the same as blocking a shot, knocking the ball up in the air. Clearly the offensive player loses possession and if he regains possession he isn't guilty of travelling. It definitely can't be a jump ball since only one person (the offensive player) is in control of the ball.

Swede

Sully
07-11-2005, 11:18 AM
I am almost positive that it is number 3.

As long as the otehr player forced him to lose control of the ball, he can't be called for travelling.

PokerBob
07-11-2005, 11:25 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I play basketball at 5am

[/ QUOTE ]

I stopped reading when I got here.

PokerBob
07-11-2005, 11:27 AM
OK, I read it all. It's 3. I can't believe that there is an argument here. Maybe if you guys got some sleep you'd be able to think clearly. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

freehat
07-11-2005, 11:28 AM
3

TheWorstPlayer
07-11-2005, 11:36 AM
Yo, my answer was first, best, and definitive. Why are there other posts in this thread?

SossMan
07-11-2005, 11:38 AM
Ok, so I'm not crazy. You wouldn't believe how often people think that you are required to 'let the ball drop' before you can touch it. I always try to explain that what would happen if you went for a shot and it was blocked? Would you be forced to wait for the ball to drop while your opponent could snatch it from the air? Still nobody got it...it was like 12-3 of people who said that it was travelling (but they were willing to let it be a jump ball). I smelled an opportunity to put these ego's to use, so I led one of the other guys down the natural road to wagerville. And it finally came..."why don't you put some money on it, hotshot".

Now I just have to find a rulebook (though this scenario will likely not be in there since it's a non-call). Since I'm quite sure that he won't take OOT for an answer, anyone have any bright ideas of how to prove this? I'll try googleing.

I have a buddy who knows an NBA ref...maybe we can get him on the phone....

SossMan
07-11-2005, 11:39 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Yo, my answer was first, best, and definitive. Why are there other posts in this thread?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your answer is exactly what I kept saying to them...it didn't get through.

TheWorstPlayer
07-11-2005, 11:41 AM
Very simple proof. You point to the section on traveling, you point to the section on jump balls. You don't find it. You win.

FouTight
07-11-2005, 12:50 PM
This may help...

Section III-Dribble
a. A player shall not run with the ball without dribbling it.
b. A player in control of a dribble who steps on or outside a boundary line, even though not touching the ball while on or outside that boundary line, shall not be allowed to return inbounds and continue his dribble. He may not even be the first player to touch the ball after he has re-established a position inbounds.
c. A player may not dribble a second time after he has voluntarily ended his first dribble.
d. A player may dribble a second time if he lost control of the ball because of:
(1) A field goal attempt at his basket, provided the ball touches the backboard or basket ring
(2) An opponent touching the ball
(3) A pass or fumble which has then touched another player
PENALTY: Loss of ball. Ball is awarded to the opposing team at the sideline nearest the spot of the violation but no nearer the baseline than the foul line extended.

That being said, if a player is allowed to dribble the ball, they are certainly allowed to pass it without dribbling it.

FouTight
07-11-2005, 12:54 PM
ALSO:

Section XIV-Traveling
a. A player who receives the ball while standing still may pivot, using either foot as the pivot foot.
b. A player who receives the ball while he is progressing or upon completion of a dribble, may use a two-count rhythm in coming to a stop, passing or shooting the ball.
The first count occurs:
(1) As he receives the ball, if either foot is touching the floor at the time he receives it.
(2) As the foot touches the floor, or as both feet touch the floor simultane- ously after he receives the ball, if both feet are off the floor when he receives it.
The second occurs:
(1) After the count of one when either foot touches the floor, or both feet touch the floor simultaneously.
c. A player who comes to a stop on the count of one may pivot, using either foot as the pivot foot.
d. A player who comes to a stop on the count of two, with one foot in advance of the other, may pivot using only the rear foot as the pivot foot.
e. A player who comes to a stop on the count of two, with neither foot in advance of the other, may use either foot as the pivot foot.
f. In starting a dribble after (1) receiving the ball while standing still, or (2) coming to a legal stop, the ball must be out of the player's hand before the pivot foot is raised off the floor.
g. If a player, with the ball in his possession, raises his pivot foot off the floor, he must pass or shoot before his pivot foot returns to the floor. If he drops the ball while in the air, he may not be the first to touch the ball.
h. A player who falls to the floor while holding the ball, or while coming to a stop, may not gain an advantage by sliding.
i. A player who attempts a field goal may not be the first to touch the ball if it fails to touch the backboard, basket ring or another player.
PENALTY: Loss of ball. The ball is awarded to the opposing team at the sideline, nearest spot of the violation but no nearer the baseline than the foul line extended.

Seems as though another person touched the ball doesn't say anything about being in mid air or anything of that sort, it's not mentioned at all in the rules, I think that should be enough to prove it.

hyde
07-11-2005, 02:38 PM
I'm just impressed with the hang time to get blocked, lose control and regain control. all before hitting the ground.

I'm one of the old crafty dudes who is down to about 3 inches vertical leap. Reduced to working the low post like Kevin McHale until the defense has frustrated themselves out of position and for some reason I'm wide open. The frustratees call it traveling. I'm sticking with crafty.

ibankonu
07-11-2005, 02:53 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I'm just impressed with the hang time to get blocked, lose control and regain control. all before hitting the ground.


[/ QUOTE ]

Usually the loss of control of the ball happens when you are about to jump, not at the top of your jump when you are shooting. It is really more of a steal than a block.

SossMan
07-11-2005, 03:08 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm just impressed with the hang time to get blocked, lose control and regain control. all before hitting the ground.


[/ QUOTE ]

Usually the loss of control of the ball happens when you are about to jump, not at the top of your jump when you are shooting. It is really more of a steal than a block.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly.

Phoenix1010
07-11-2005, 03:09 PM
Well the answer is obviously 3. I'll point out that when I was younger there was a group of people that I played with that insisted it was 2. It was a very large group in fact. There are all kinds of "interpretations" of the rules floating around out there which usually arise when someone sees an opportunity to get shoot an angle, or when nobody really knows the answer and the person with the strongest will or loudest mouth (who may be right or wrong) gets his way. NBA and NCAA rules (as well as all other organized basketball associations) call it a live ball.

barry111
07-11-2005, 03:37 PM
[ QUOTE ]
3 and it's not close. If he goes up and comes down without losing control of the ball, but gets tied up, it's a jump ball. If he goes up and comes down without losing control of the ball and without getting tied up, it's a travel. If he goes up and loses control of the ball, he may then regain control and land and it's a live ball a la Charles Smith against the Bulls.

[/ QUOTE ]

DITTO

squeek12
07-11-2005, 03:38 PM
option 3, and it's not even close.

SossMan
07-11-2005, 03:52 PM
[ QUOTE ]
option 3, and it's not even close.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks. I think that we've established that. I'm not sure how it could be close, anyway. It either is or isn't a live ball.

TheWorstPlayer
07-11-2005, 04:18 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
option 3, and it's not even close.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks. I think that we've established that. I'm not sure how it could be close, anyway. It either is or isn't a live ball.

[/ QUOTE ]
How about if a defender is coming over to play help D in the paint and a guy coming down the lane hits into him pretty squarely. The defender had squared his body to the offensive player but he still had some degree of forward motion. His body was clearly in front of the basket, but his feet were only just touching the ground in front of the basket and he had been coming out from underneath it. The offensive player hits him mid-stride, puts another foot down, and then scores. Does the basket count but no foul, does the basket count and a foul on the defender, does the basket not count and foul on the offensive player, does the basket not count and foul on the defensive player, or 'is it close?'

SossMan
07-11-2005, 04:37 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
option 3, and it's not even close.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks. I think that we've established that. I'm not sure how it could be close, anyway. It either is or isn't a live ball.

[/ QUOTE ]
How about if a defender is coming over to play help D in the paint and a guy coming down the lane hits into him pretty squarely. The defender had squared his body to the offensive player but he still had some degree of forward motion. His body was clearly in front of the basket, but his feet were only just touching the ground in front of the basket and he had been coming out from underneath it. The offensive player hits him mid-stride, puts another foot down, and then scores. Does the basket count but no foul, does the basket count and a foul on the defender, does the basket not count and foul on the offensive player, does the basket not count and foul on the defensive player, or 'is it close?'

[/ QUOTE ]

block.

given the fact that none of the facts were disputed, a proper call is easy. The difficulty comes in a ref perceiving *if* there was still forward motion, *if* he was square to the bucket, *if* the other player lowered his shoulder into him, etc...

once these are given, the proper call should be easy.

TheWorstPlayer
07-11-2005, 04:54 PM
Actually, if that dude with the rule book looks up the rule, I'm pretty sure you'll see that my situation is close.

Your Mom
07-12-2005, 12:17 AM
Never underestimate the stupidity of other people. I coached a 12 year old baseball team this summer. Nearly every game, I had to explain a rule to the umpire and/or the other coach and make an ass of myself to make sure the rule was properly enforced.

TheWorstPlayer
07-12-2005, 12:22 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Never underestimate the stupidity of other people. I coached a 12 year old baseball team this summer. Nearly every game, I had to explain a rule to the umpire and/or the other coach and make an ass of myself to make sure the rule was properly enforced.

[/ QUOTE ]
Have you ever tried playing pool with someone who didn't really play seriously? There are only about 10 key rules that no one knows....most frustrating thing ever.

RacersEdge
07-12-2005, 12:26 AM
I would say (3) if really lost control of the ball.

And my analogy would be a rebound. When you jump up in the air for a rebound, you are in the same position as this guy in the air after he lost control of the ball. In both cases, you grab the ball and come down.

pc in NM
07-12-2005, 12:27 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I play basketball at 5am 3 times a week at my gym. The same bunch of crappy old dudes, crafty old dudes (there was a legit hook shot this morning) and good, young high school varsity level players.

So here's the play and the argument that ensued (these facts are not disputed):

Player A drives the lane
Player A goes up for a lay up
On his way up, Player B swipes at the ball and gets a piece of it.
The swipe was enough to make Player A lose control of the ball in the air (both hands were off the ball and the ball was in the air being touched by nobody)
While still in the air, Player A regains control of the ball.
Player A lands with both hands on the ball, passes the ball to a teammate who drains a 3 to end the game.

Here's the argument:

1) It's a Jump ball since he didn't let the ball bounce to the ground
2) It's a travelling violation since he didn't ever let the ball bounce to the ground
3) It's a non-call and a live ball, therefore the bucket counts


We have $50 riding on the outcome (not here, but I wanted to see if I was on the correct side of this commonly disputed call).

What's the call?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, folks. Its TRAVELING, plain and simple. The ball never changed possession, and, since Player A regained control while still in the air, its no different than if he merely jumped and landed, untouched....

Had Player A actually launched the shot, and it had been touched by another player, then he could have caught the "rebound"....

TheWorstPlayer
07-12-2005, 12:29 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I play basketball at 5am 3 times a week at my gym. The same bunch of crappy old dudes, crafty old dudes (there was a legit hook shot this morning) and good, young high school varsity level players.

So here's the play and the argument that ensued (these facts are not disputed):

Player A drives the lane
Player A goes up for a lay up
On his way up, Player B swipes at the ball and gets a piece of it.
The swipe was enough to make Player A lose control of the ball in the air (both hands were off the ball and the ball was in the air being touched by nobody)
While still in the air, Player A regains control of the ball.
Player A lands with both hands on the ball, passes the ball to a teammate who drains a 3 to end the game.

Here's the argument:

1) It's a Jump ball since he didn't let the ball bounce to the ground
2) It's a travelling violation since he didn't ever let the ball bounce to the ground
3) It's a non-call and a live ball, therefore the bucket counts


We have $50 riding on the outcome (not here, but I wanted to see if I was on the correct side of this commonly disputed call).

What's the call?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, folks. Its TRAVELING, plain and simple. The ball never changed possession, and, since Player A regained control while still in the air, its no different than if he merely jumped and landed, untouched....

[/ QUOTE ]
Is this your 'thing' to come into a long thread where the original question has clearly been answered correctly and the thread has been officially off topic for several posts and to bring it back to the original question with an answer which is clearly wrong? If so, it's a cool thing. I like it.

Tron
07-12-2005, 12:32 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Never underestimate the stupidity of other people. I coached a 12 year old baseball team this summer. Nearly every game, I had to explain a rule to the umpire and/or the other coach and make an ass of myself to make sure the rule was properly enforced.

[/ QUOTE ]
Have you ever tried playing pool with someone who didn't really play seriously? There are only about 10 key rules that no one knows....most frustrating thing ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait, so you mean, like, the majority of people who play pool?

TheWorstPlayer
07-12-2005, 12:32 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Never underestimate the stupidity of other people. I coached a 12 year old baseball team this summer. Nearly every game, I had to explain a rule to the umpire and/or the other coach and make an ass of myself to make sure the rule was properly enforced.

[/ QUOTE ]
Have you ever tried playing pool with someone who didn't really play seriously? There are only about 10 key rules that no one knows....most frustrating thing ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait, so you mean, like, the majority of people who play pool?

[/ QUOTE ]
Basically.

Tron
07-12-2005, 12:44 AM
[ QUOTE ]
If so, it's a cool thing. I like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing that months or maybe even years ago pc in NM, in a stroke of brilliance, registered the gimmick account "Wrong Answer Boy" and has been waiting since that day for one glorious chance to put it to use. That day was today. But Firefox automatically logged him in as pc in NM. Oooooh it burns.

Stellastarr
07-12-2005, 01:02 AM
3. Ball is live.

dlk9s
07-12-2005, 04:57 AM
You play with a bunch of assholic morons.