Queens with two aces on board

[tor]

BB is loose pf, and has called down with almost anything sooted, even 63 off when he had no piece of the flop and no draw.

MP2 is slightly unknown, hasn't done anything dumb as of yet, and hasn't played 8 of the last 10 hands since I noticed him joining. Am assuming he's a decent player.

Ultimate Bet 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

[skoal2k4]

I don't mind your call on the turn... you have plenty of outs here, but I would dump this hand UI on the river to any action and probably only call down if I did improve to anything besides one of the Q's (then I'd raise/call) People will tell you "if you call the turn, you need to call the river" but given mp's profile, that just seems like spewing to me

[bottomset]

bet the turn, the A couldn't have possibly made a hand better than yours, that didn't already have you beat .. you got the 2nd nut flush draw, and 2queen outs as well

[JacksonTens]

You bet the flop, so if no one else had the flush you just picked up fold equity, so I think you should have bet the turn, then its an easy fold if you get rerasied as I doubt theres any trickys at .05c/.10c. I bet the turn if called, and then I might even bet the river.

[Kumubou]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't mind your call on the turn... you have plenty of outs here, but I would dump this hand UI on the river to any action and probably only call down if I did improve to anything besides one of the Q's (then I'd raise/call) People will tell you "if you call the turn, you need to call the river" but given mp's profile, that just seems like spewing to me

[/ QUOTE ]
Whaaaaaaaaaat?!

That second ace gives me more reason to keep jamming, not less! It is a really nice card -- if you were ahead, it makes that fact become more clear (since it now becomes less likely someone has an Ace, and it does not help any draws). If you were behind, you were already behind and people with an ace (or the made flush) will be much more willing to let you know (many players who will not raise TPRK will jam with trips, and people love setting traps with monstars).

Not betting makes this hand harder to play. If you bet and MP1 raises, it's more likely that he has the goods (as he was waiting for an safe turn card to jam on this odd board; or he's just being cute and trapping). If this board was not monocrone, I would argue he probably has a T and is value betting it, figuring you to be on large cards (with a heart) that whiffed. Maybe that is what he thinks you have anyway.

Calling down with the second nut flush? Calling a raise with top boat?? Man, I seriously doubt someone has K/images/graemlins/heart.gif or AA. Hell, I think his hand may very well be best on the river regardless of what comes! Please bet.

-K

[skoal2k4]

[ QUOTE ]

MP2 is slightly unknown, hasn't done anything dumb as of yet, and hasn't played 8 of the last 10 hands since I noticed him joining. Am assuming he's a decent player.


[/ QUOTE ]

what i said is based on that

[Kumubou]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

MP2 is slightly unknown, hasn't done anything dumb as of yet, and hasn't played 8 of the last 10 hands since I noticed him joining. Am assuming he's a decent player.


[/ QUOTE ]

what i said is based on that

[/ QUOTE ]
That is more of a reason to get aggro here, not less! To me that means his betting/raising range here is much wider than the nuts or near-nuts, even on a relatively scary board. If I was MP1, I would be betting a pair of Ts there -- the raise/bet/check line just screams "paint with a flush draw" to me. No free card for you!

-K

[skoal2k4]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

MP2 is slightly unknown, hasn't done anything dumb as of yet, and hasn't played 8 of the last 10 hands since I noticed him joining. Am assuming he's a decent player.


[/ QUOTE ]

what i said is based on that

[/ QUOTE ]
That is more of a reason to get aggro here, not less! To me that means his betting/raising range here is much wider than the nuts or near-nuts, even on a relatively scary board. If I was MP1, I would be betting a pair of Ts there -- the raise/bet/check line just screams "paint with a flush draw" to me. No free card for you!

-K

[/ QUOTE ]

so a decent tight player that hasn't done anything dumb is making a move here? for what reason?

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

MP2 is slightly unknown, hasn't done anything dumb as of yet, and hasn't played 8 of the last 10 hands since I noticed him joining. Am assuming he's a decent player.


[/ QUOTE ]

what i said is based on that

[/ QUOTE ]
That is more of a reason to get aggro here, not less! To me that means his betting/raising range here is much wider than the nuts or near-nuts, even on a relatively scary board. If I was MP1, I would be betting a pair of Ts there -- the raise/bet/check line just screams "paint with a flush draw" to me. No free card for you!

-K

[/ QUOTE ]

so a decent tight player that hasn't done anything dumb is making a move here? for what reason?

[/ QUOTE ]

uh you have a 10hand sample with 8folds, you don't know he's decent, its not smart to lock in the read yet

[toddw8]

[ QUOTE ]

so a decent tight player that hasn't done anything dumb is making a move here? for what reason?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's making a move after hero showed weakness by checking. This greatly increases a decent player's range of hands.

[Kumubou]

Well, he seems to have done one already dumb thing here: cold call Hero's PF raise. There is a very small range of hands I can see that being correct (AQs, KQs, 99-88), and even then a lot of players will three-bet instead.

Why is he making a move? He is betting for value. Let's say he sees UTG+1 as a relatively solid player and my read matches his. BB is a donk acting like a donk and probably has any two cards. Maybe MP2 has JJ-88 and was being a nit on the flop (or decided to wait for a safe turn) and decided to fire once he saw the turn. (I can not think of a sane hand from the pre-flop action that would have paired the T -- AT???)

Like I said, if Hero bet it would make MP2's action much more clear -- if he peels, he probably has middle pair and/or a flush draw. If he raises, he has at minimum trip As and you can safely fold the river UI. If he folds, throw a party.

-K

[TomBrooks]

Why did you bet the flop and check/call the turn? You thought you were ahead of one ace, but behind two? The second ace makes it less likely your opponent has one. I bet out the turn and usually fold to a raise.

[SoftcoreRevolt]

Bet the turn, then bet the river. Win lots of money.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
Why did you bet the flop and check/call the turn? You thought you were ahead of one ace, but behind two? The second ace makes it less likely your opponent has one. I bet out the turn and usually fold to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

hello hero has a FD too

[skoal2k4]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

so a decent tight player that hasn't done anything dumb is making a move here? for what reason?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's making a move after hero showed weakness by checking. This greatly increases a decent player's range of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

ya, I'm an idiot... completely missed that hero acted first in this. Got tunnel vision of mp2 donk-betting this turn /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Eeegah]

(probably redundant; I'm replying before reading other replies)
The turn actually helped you; it reduces the odds that you're beat by a third. Fire at the turn, but I'd probably just call if he raises in case he's slowplaying a flush.

[silkyslim]

I'd bet/call the turn. IF you were ahead you still are, same if you were behind, but you have the flush outs to see the river. Given my recommended line, what if you are raised on turn and led into on river? calls?

[tor]

So, I'm wondering if my read on MP2 is too conservative. I've never seen him before, and he just sat down, playing tightly preflop.

I'm wondering if I should assume whether or not he's a decent player at best, due to eventually finding otherwise after playing with him. But the most significant factor is recently I've read in SSH that you should assume that the game is loose until shown otherwise. Does this hold true for other players as well? How long do you have to sit with a guy before you start to zero in on a read, and what is your default read?

I've been respecting *individuals* unless shown evidence to the contrary. Now I'm wondering if I shouldn't respect individuals at these nanolimits until shown they know their stuff.

[JKDStudent]

Uh... bet Turn. That Ace coming makes it less likely that someone else has one. If you get raised, then you might be in trouble. But you have to call. First, because after 10 hands you don't know if he's capable of raising scare cards or not, you still have the second-nut flush draw, and the two queen outs are clean (AQ raises this flop)

[TomBrooks]

I bet out the turn and usually fold to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]hello hero has a FD too

[/ QUOTE ]LoL. Oh yes. There must have been a smudge on my monitor when I looked at it before.