I am consistently fold hands like this..

[moodifier]

Should I be?

Reads w/o PT arent much. Obviously the SB leads into the field, Ive got the one card gutshot but my four would put four to a straight on board. All equals an easy fold right?

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, Hero folds, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>

River: (4 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>

Final Pot: 4 BB
This could be really standard but I just think that sometimes ppl are betting overcards or OES here.

[wyoak]

preflop is pretty marginal. without reads saying the rest of the table is EXTREMELY loose-passive i'd fold this.

fold is very standard.

[Dave G.]

Against 4 other players this is a very standard laydown. Even if you are ahead at this point, there are just too many bad cards that can ruin you on the turn and river. You aren't getting odds to draw to your gutshot and your 4 outs put 4 to a straight on the board.

Heads up you might call this down, read depending.

[zPro]

Small pot. Your position isn't very good with 2 players behind you.

I fold this 100% of the time with or without any reads.

[skoal2k4]

[ QUOTE ]
preflop is pretty marginal. without reads saying the rest of the table is EXTREMELY loose-passive i'd fold this.

fold is very standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with the PF statement

[newfant]

I would probably call the flop bet to see the turn. Sometimes I would fold since there are still 2 people left to act behind you.

From there it depends on what cards come out and what the other donkeys in the hand do.

These are kind of tough hands to play. Sometimes (maybe most of the time) I'll fold 44 from MP1 preflop.

I don't think you played it too bad. There are definitely better places to get your money in in these low limit games.

[Dave G.]

[ QUOTE ]
I would probably call the flop bet to see the turn. Sometimes I would fold since there are still 2 people left to act behind you.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we call the flop bet, we are assuming we have the best hand and we should be showing this down (depending on no significant action, of course).

Calling the flop to see what the turn brings, and then decide from there however, is going to be -EV. Almost every card on the turn is a scare card. The pot is nowhere near big enough to "call and re-evaluate" with such a vulnerable hand that has too small a chance of improving and too large a chance of becoming second best (if it isn't already).

Your decision to play this hand must be made on the flop. If you call the flop, it must be done with the intention of showing down, barring any crazy action on the turn. Since I don't think we'll win at showdown too often here, I fold the flop.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
preflop is pretty marginal. without reads saying the rest of the table is EXTREMELY loose-passive i'd fold this.

fold is very standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

uh its MP1, its a weak pair that doesn't win UI, and needs a multiway pot, which is much less likely now

its an easy fold unless special conditions say otherwise ..

postflop is very standard


I disagree with the PF statement

[/ QUOTE ]

[newfant]

[ QUOTE ]
Your decision to play this hand must be made on the flop. If you call the flop, it must be done with the intention of showing down, barring any crazy action on the turn. Since I don't think we'll win at showdown too often here, I fold the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you need to showdown here just because you call on the flop getting at least 6:1. It's not like we have committed ourselves by putting one more SB into this pot.

However, I think a PF fold with 44 from this position is best. It'll keep OP out of these marginal situations. I also can't argue with your flop fold, but there's no reason to go to showdown here just because you call to see the turn.

A flop call is maybe a small mistake. Calling to showdown just because you made it to the turn could be a huge mistake.

[skoal2k4]

you should NOT be folding this hand or any pair PF from mp for 1 SB!!

[newfant]

[ QUOTE ]
you should NOT be folding this hand or any pair PF from mp for 1 SB!!

[/ QUOTE ]

We'll have to disagree then. 2 or 3 positions later and I'll usually play 44. From MP1 I would need at least 66 or maybe 77 to feel comfortable. That's not to say I'll fold 44 all the time from this position but I'll fold it some of the time.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
you should NOT be folding this hand or any pair PF from mp for 1 SB!!

[/ QUOTE ]

uh you are the first to enter the pot, with a speculative hand, that needs multiway action to be a +ev hand(remember you check/fold most flops, and those 1SB addup)

come on bro, its not even close without a specific read on the players left to act

FWIW I'm, folding 55down, raising 77up ..and vary 66 here

[newfant]

One other thing, if you're really feeling crazy you could raise that flop and try to knock out the players behind you. If you get reraised, maybe call 1 to see the turn and get ready to fold if the turn isn't a 5 or a 4.

If everyone behind you falls out after your flop raise and SB checks the turn, then you probably have the best hand and can bet the turn and maybe the river.

I wouldn't raise here very often, but I would do it occassionally.

[Dave G.]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you need to showdown here just because you call on the flop getting at least 6:1.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is that 6:1 is NOT enough to call for this hand if you're hoping to improve. We can only call profitably if we think we're ahead. You are making a -EV call if are not planning to show this down. And since almost every turn card is a scare card, we can never be sure that our hand didn't just get beaten.

So if we call the flop, we have to show this down, or we're just throwing money away on the flop. You might as well pick up a 50 cent piece and throw it away every time you do it. Sure, it's "only 1 more SB", but -EV is -EV. This will cost you money in the long run. That's why folding is correct against a medium sized field like this.

[skoal2k4]

how tight are the micro-limit games over there that you let go of hands like this? Yes it is a speculative hand that needs help in order to win, but you will make money playing this for 1 SB from most positions... you generally will have the implied odds you need... Now, if it were from late position, you could have an argument that you wouldn't have the right implied odds for this kind of hand. Most have already folded right? so either you fold or go for a semi-bluff steal

[skoal2k4]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you should NOT be folding this hand or any pair PF from mp for 1 SB!!

[/ QUOTE ]

We'll have to disagree then. 2 or 3 positions later and I'll usually play 44. From MP1 I would need at least 66 or maybe 77 to feel comfortable. That's not to say I'll fold 44 all the time from this position but I'll fold it some of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

tell me, why and how would you play this hand 2-3 positions later, but not from this position?

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
how tight are the micro-limit games over there that you let go of hands like this? Yes it is a speculative hand that needs help in order to win, but you will make money playing this for 1 SB from most positions... you generally will have the implied odds you need... Now, if it were from late position, you could have an argument that you wouldn't have the right implied odds for this kind of hand. Most have already folded right? so either you fold or go for a semi-bluff steal

[/ QUOTE ]

ok you hit a set 7.5/1 .. which wins on the order of 3/4ths of the time so roughly 10/1 in implied odds for a sml pair to be breakeven

you are getting a monster 1.5/1 on the intial limp, I'd say roughly 5/1 or so is the minimum preflop for a standard .5/1 table

so you need all 3 ppl left to limp, the SB to complete, and BB to check .. uh that isn't all that likely, and if the pot gets raised, it really sucks balls to play 3handed with 44 and no initiative, paying 2bets to see the flop

edit: you are prob fine if 2of 3limp, the SB always completes, and the pot is never raised .. but you need looser than the standard .5/1 players behind you for this situation to be likely

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
how tight are the micro-limit games over there that you let go of hands like this? Yes it is a speculative hand that needs help in order to win, but you will make money playing this for 1 SB from most positions... you generally will have the implied odds you need... Now, if it were from late position, you could have an argument that you wouldn't have the right implied odds for this kind of hand. Most have already folded right? so either you fold or go for a semi-bluff steal

[/ QUOTE ]

There are only 7 players at the table. After Hero, there are 3 players left to act plus the blinds. You would really like to see this one with 4 other players. Do you think 2 out of 3 will limp in behind you (and the small blind will call as well)? Did you know that if everyone behind you is a 50 VPIP, it's only a 50% chance that you'll get your two limpers before the blinds? If SB is 75% VPIP from that position, then you're only 37.5% chance of seeing a 5-handed flop. And I didn't even throw in the chance of seeing a raise and messing everything up.

If you still think it's a yes, then go ahead and limp. Otherwise, toss it. You need to think through these plays, otherwise you may be costing yourself money without even knowing it.

[TomBrooks]

FLOP: Fold it and forget it.

[newfant]

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[ QUOTE ]


you should NOT be folding this hand or any pair PF from mp for 1 SB!!



[/ QUOTE ]

We'll have to disagree then. 2 or 3 positions later and I'll usually play 44. From MP1 I would need at least 66 or maybe 77 to feel comfortable. That's not to say I'll fold 44 all the time from this position but I'll fold it some of the time.


[/ QUOTE ]



tell me, why and how would you play this hand 2-3 positions later, but not from this position?

[/ QUOTE ]

In later position you have more info. Maybe 2 more people have limped in and it's safter to play this hand. Maybe somebody has already raised and it's an easy fold.

I don't think you can give one standard answer for 44 from early position because it depends on table conditions. If you're at a table where there is a lot of preflop raising then you'd prolly want to fold 44. If 6 people limp in ever time then I prolly play it.

[zephed]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you need to showdown here just because you call on the flop getting at least 6:1.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is that 6:1 is NOT enough to call for this hand if you're hoping to improve. We can only call profitably if we think we're ahead. You are making a -EV call if are not planning to show this down. And since almost every turn card is a scare card, we can never be sure that our hand didn't just get beaten.

So if we call the flop, we have to show this down, or we're just throwing money away on the flop. You might as well pick up a 50 cent piece and throw it away every time you do it. Sure, it's "only 1 more SB", but -EV is -EV. This will cost you money in the long run. That's why folding is correct against a medium sized field like this.

[/ QUOTE ]
You know we have a gutshot draw too right?

It's pretty damn close if you assume it will not get raised behind you.

I'd probably fold just because of the players behind me left to act. EDIT: + the possibility of a split.

[silkyslim]

sb might be drawing to a straight larger than yours, or have caught a piece of his A-rag, or have overs to beat you if you do in fact have the best hand. Same with any other callers. The pot is not big enough to call or raise to protect IMO.