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[censored]
07-11-2005, 12:36 AM
ok here's the deal I have two dogs liter mates both males 2 1/2 years old. They have never been aggressive with each except for few very brief and mild fights over a bone or something. those at most last 30 seconds before they just stop. They are not fixed

for some reason they were very aggitated with each other for the last 2 hours or so tonight (after being outside together all day) finally they just cut loose and went at and would not stop. I sprayed them with a hoose which did nothing and finally had to go in and pull the apart.

one has a punture would in his front shoulder which has stopped bleeding now (there was blood on both dogs)


Is this normal. how long should I keep them seperated?

any ideas what is going on?

TxSteve
07-11-2005, 12:54 AM
i suspect that being that they are not fixed; one dog tried to stick it in the other dogs pooper and this was not well received.

[censored]
07-11-2005, 12:57 AM
Usually I don't see your posts but I actually checked your post because I want to get as much info as possible. I am proud to report that once the wisdom of my ignore list has once again be vindicated. thank you for not letting me down.

27offsuit
07-11-2005, 12:58 AM
put'em down......



arf

teamdonkey
07-11-2005, 12:58 AM
[ QUOTE ]
They are not fixed

[/ QUOTE ]

why?

my understanding is this is the kind of risk you take when you dont fix male dogs, one effect of the higher testosterone levels is increased aggression. Be happy it was dog vs dog and not dog vs 6 year old or something.

are you planning on breeding them? If not you really should look into getting them neutered.

shant
07-11-2005, 01:02 AM
This happened with a friend of mine's two dogs, but I think they're both female. I know one is female, the other may be male. They got into it over a bone, and they both got pretty bloody. He didn't seem too worried about it, and kept one in another room for about a day or two. Nothing has happened like it again since.

Bill Murphy
07-11-2005, 01:02 AM
happened to a friend of mine. you're gonna have to get rid of the one you like least; male dom issues, taste of blood, etc. No hope for it.

mslif
07-11-2005, 01:05 AM
[ QUOTE ]
put'em down......



arf

[/ QUOTE ]

douchebag

[censored]
07-11-2005, 01:19 AM
[ QUOTE ]
happened to a friend of mine. you're gonna have to get rid of the one you like least; male dom issues, taste of blood, etc. No hope for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

seriously? I don't know if I could do this.

[censored]
07-11-2005, 01:20 AM
[ QUOTE ]
This happened with a friend of mine's two dogs, but I think they're both female. I know one is female, the other may be male. They got into it over a bone, and they both got pretty bloody. He didn't seem too worried about it, and kept one in another room for about a day or two. Nothing has happened like it again since.

[/ QUOTE ]

well this is what I'm trying right now.

[censored]
07-11-2005, 01:22 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They are not fixed

[/ QUOTE ]

why?

my understanding is this is the kind of risk you take when you dont fix male dogs, one effect of the higher testosterone levels is increased aggression. Be happy it was dog vs dog and not dog vs 6 year old or something.

are you planning on breeding them? If not you really should look into getting them neutered.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well they are really passive towards people, never bitten or anything and play with kids all the time. However fixing them is definently something I am considering right now.

I hadn't fixed them because I never felt the need to until now. I actually started thinking about this yesterday.

Jeff W
07-11-2005, 01:29 AM
[ QUOTE ]
ok here's the deal I have two dogs liter mates both males 2 1/2 years old.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bad idea. I worked at a dog training center for four years and one important rule we had was that male dogs were separated from each other. Eventually you're going to have fights over dominance when you put males together. One USA champion in breed show dog was killed by another male dog that had broken through its kennel. Struggles for dominance are a way of life for dogs.

Also, for a number of reasons you should not own dogs that are litter mates.

In other words, you are [censored].

Okay, sorry for the joke. They are either going to be fine or they won't be. Unfortunately the struggle was not resolved and there may be further bloodshed in the future. OTOH, you have had them for a long time and there has been no problem in the past so it may have been an isolated incident. I have a male and female rottweiler and they occasionally have very nasty fights but they are obedient and I have always been able to separate them.

wacki
07-11-2005, 01:34 AM
[ QUOTE ]
*** You are ignoring this user ***

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the tip [censored]

ThaSaltCracka
07-11-2005, 03:05 AM
if you want to keep them both, get them fixed.

Grisgra
07-11-2005, 03:22 AM
[ QUOTE ]
happened to a friend of mine. you're gonna have to get rid of the one you like least; male dom issues, taste of blood, etc. No hope for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really doubt that this is the case. The two of them had to work out who was the alpha. There might be another battle or two in the future, but in general -- well, this is how dogs work things out.

Not sure that getting either of them fixed is going to help either IMO. Fixed dogs have dominance issues as well, sometimes very strong ones.

DavidC
07-11-2005, 10:01 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Usually I don't see your posts but I actually checked your post because I want to get as much info as possible. I am proud to report that once the wisdom of my ignore list has once again be vindicated. thank you for not letting me down.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's possible...

What does Ray Zee have to say about this? (Our resident, non-licenced vet)

DavidC
07-11-2005, 10:03 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Also, for a number of reasons you should not own dogs that are litter mates.


[/ QUOTE ]

Why's that? I know nothing about dogs and I'm curious, now. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The once and future king
07-11-2005, 10:19 AM
[ QUOTE ]
They are not fixed


[/ QUOTE ]

So your saying the dogs are both broken? Maybe they need to be repaired at the vets or sumfink?

Soul Daddy
07-11-2005, 10:24 AM
Is this why you asked about the benefits of neutering or is that just a strange coincidence?

MoreWineII
07-11-2005, 10:29 AM
What breed are they? I didn't see it mentioned.

swede123
07-11-2005, 10:31 AM
Grisgra is correct. Most likely there won't be a need to put one down etc. Just like in the wild they need to establish dominance. Hopefully they will figure out who's the boss and who's the bitch and that's that. Obviously getting them fixed could help with some of these aggression issues, but since they have reached maturity with their balls intact fixing them may not fix all aggression issues. Are they fairly well trained, minding you and so forth? I suppose you can discipline them whenever they get feisty, and maybe their respect for you will overcome these primal tendencies to fight.

Swede

NorCalJosh
07-11-2005, 10:47 AM
i skimmed through and it looks like most major issues got covered... the fixing has something to do with it, but at this point in time behavioral patterns have been established. my room mate and i ended up buying littermates, two girls, and while they never quit harassing each other, it's never gotten serious. both of them when they were younger occasionally ran afoul of my 6 year old golden retriever, but she put them in line quickly, and they defer to her still even though they both outweigh her by 20+ pounds now.

in general i would guess it was just a little bit of crankiness, combined with to much testosterone and some dominance issues. so basically i'm just agreeing with everyone. god what a waste of a [censored] post. oh well.

CollinEstes
07-11-2005, 11:04 AM
Swede is correct. My wife and I have four dogs and you have to establish a pecking order so to speak so that they know who the boss is. Two of our dogs are huskie girls from the same liter and we had the same problem but once we worked on establishing one as the more dominant it never happened again because they would back down.

It is strange but here are some ways to do it for your two dogs, but you have to pick which one you think should be dominant.

1. Let the dominant dog out and in first everytime.
2. Feed the dominant dog first every time
3. Pet the dominant dog when you come home first then the second.
4. Give the dominant dog treats first.

Basically let the big dog do everything before the other dog does and then they will work out the pecking order. It will be funny after they do you will notice the other dog will be submissive and let the dominant dog in first everytime without you doing it.

SomethingClever
07-11-2005, 11:39 AM
I agree that getting your dogs fixed is a good idea

HOWEVER

I don't think it will necessarily solve this problem.

Our dog became MORE aggressive with other dogs after he was fixed.

He's very passive with people as well, but if another dog tries to take his toy, he'll [censored] it up.

Quercus
07-11-2005, 11:59 AM
[ QUOTE ]


It is strange but here are some ways to do it for your two dogs, but you have to pick which one you think should be dominant.



[/ QUOTE ]

Its also important not to personify the situation. Dogs have a pecking order and will be less agitated once its resolved than if it remains ambiguous.

People will sometimes attempt to "correct" the pecking order out of a sense of being "fair" and all that accomplishes is getting the dogs more upset.

I've read some interesting stuff over the years regarding the pecking order and whether owners are part of it or not. For a while, I believe there was a school of thought that said that a human owner should emulate the behavior of an alpha dog for best results (even advocating "fighting" with your dogs in some sort of strange doggy manner to get the point across). I've also read that that's a bunch of crap - dogs aren't all that smart, but smart enough to realize you aren't one.

swede123
07-11-2005, 12:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


It is strange but here are some ways to do it for your two dogs, but you have to pick which one you think should be dominant.



[/ QUOTE ]

Its also important not to personify the situation. Dogs have a pecking order and will be less agitated once its resolved than if it remains ambiguous.

People will sometimes attempt to "correct" the pecking order out of a sense of being "fair" and all that accomplishes is getting the dogs more upset.

I've read some interesting stuff over the years regarding the pecking order and whether owners are part of it or not. For a while, I believe there was a school of thought that said that a human owner should emulate the behavior of an alpha dog for best results (even advocating "fighting" with your dogs in some sort of strange doggy manner to get the point across). I've also read that that's a bunch of crap - dogs aren't all that smart, but smart enough to realize you aren't one.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's hilarious. Someone actually suggested you'd get down on all fours and bite your dog? I can tell you what, if I tried to do that to my six month old puppy he'd kick my ass, I can only imagine doing this to a fully grown dog.

Another thing regarding dogs and their fighting. Don't be alarmed by the presence of some blood. Your dogs fighting may look like they are trying to murder each other but there are safety mechanisms built in where they really won't hurt each other for real (other than tearing up each other's ears and noses and what not). Obviously there are exceptions, especially when the dogs have been bred to fight.

Swede

CollinEstes
07-11-2005, 12:09 PM
I dog owner told me that when I when I play "tug-o-war" games with my puppy I should never let him win. Because he has to know that I am the dominant one. I think there is something to that. I have one dog that is a terror and I think it is becuase I don't scare the dog at all. But the other dogs my voice when I yell is enough to scare them enough so that they stop doing what they are doing. The bad dog acts like I don't exist.

NorCalJosh
07-11-2005, 12:12 PM
i bite my dog regularly. is there some kind of problem with that?

Patrick del Poker Grande
07-11-2005, 12:14 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I dog owner told me that when I when I play "tug-o-war" games with my puppy I should never let him win. Because he has to know that I am the dominant one. I think there is something to that. I have one dog that is a terror and I think it is becuase I don't scare the dog at all. But the other dogs my voice when I yell is enough to scare them enough so that they stop doing what they are doing. The bad dog acts like I don't exist.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've heard a bit differently. That it's alright to play tug-of-war with your dog as long as it's just fun and not an aggression/dominance thing. If the dog starts trying to re-grip higher on the rope and choke up on you to gain more of the rope, then it's a battle for dominance. At that point, you just drop the rope and you don't play. You just don't play and you show your alpha status in other ways - providing the food, etc.

CollinEstes
07-11-2005, 12:14 PM
When they said fight with your dogs I think they mean more like wrestling with them. I do that with my big dog, where I just sit on the floor and push him around and he bites me (but not hard). I don't crawl around or bite him though. I just piss him off real bad by patting his feet and knocking him over. Good times.

swede123
07-11-2005, 12:15 PM
Yeah, discipline is necessary in my opinion. I'm not saying beat the crap out of the dog, but a good yank at his neckhair seems to get the point across when he's being disruptive. Then there is the method my wife's grandpa uses to train his dogs. He always has a Border Collie to help out with chores around his farm. Since he has cows, sheep and chickens that all need to be herded the dog needs to learn to use different tactics for the various animals. Usually at some point in the training he puppy will get too excited/angry and one of the chickens ends up dying. The grandpa then takes the chicken corpse by the feet and proceeds to beat the dog with the dead chicken. Like magic the dog learns to never ever touch the chickens while herding them. Brilliant, in my opinion.

Swede

Quercus
07-11-2005, 12:15 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


It is strange but here are some ways to do it for your two dogs, but you have to pick which one you think should be dominant.



[/ QUOTE ]


Its also important not to personify the situation. Dogs have a pecking order and will be less agitated once its resolved than if it remains ambiguous.

People will sometimes attempt to "correct" the pecking order out of a sense of being "fair" and all that accomplishes is getting the dogs more upset.

I've read some interesting stuff over the years regarding the pecking order and whether owners are part of it or not. For a while, I believe there was a school of thought that said that a human owner should emulate the behavior of an alpha dog for best results (even advocating "fighting" with your dogs in some sort of strange doggy manner to get the point across). I've also read that that's a bunch of crap - dogs aren't all that smart, but smart enough to realize you aren't one.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's hilarious. Someone actually suggested you'd get down on all fours and bite your dog? I can tell you what, if I tried to do that to my six month old puppy he'd kick my ass, I can only imagine doing this to a fully grown dog.


Another thing regarding dogs and their fighting. Don't be alarmed by the presence of some blood. Your dogs fighting may look like they are trying to murder each other but there are safety mechanisms built in where they really won't hurt each other for real (other than tearing up each other's ears and noses and what not). Obviously there are exceptions, especially when the dogs have been bred to fight.

Swede

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I don't think biting was part of the regimen. Play-bowing (when your dog puts his chest to the ground with his front paws forward and his hind legs standing) and then flipping the dog over and pinning him on his back and making growling noises was though.

I've also read some stuff about why dogs do the things they do and like the things they like. I believe that most doggy experts (whatever that means) believe that dogs are essentially wolves that are trapped in adolesence. I've also heard of dogs referred to as having suckered humans into raising their young in a great evolutionary con game.

Next time your dog tries to lick your face, throw up the hamburder you just ate into his mouth and you'll have made his day. I also now know why my male dog completely grooves on having his chest petted. There is such a thing as learning too much.

[censored]
07-11-2005, 12:20 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Is this why you asked about the benefits of neutering or is that just a strange coincidence?

[/ QUOTE ]

Complete coincidence, nothing like this had happened until last night night.

[censored]
07-11-2005, 12:21 PM
[ QUOTE ]
What breed are they? I didn't see it mentioned.

[/ QUOTE ]

lab/chessapeake retriever mix.

CollinEstes
07-11-2005, 12:22 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What breed are they? I didn't see it mentioned.

[/ QUOTE ]

lab/chessapeake retriever mix.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice mix. My parents have a lab/poodle mix that is pretty sweet, surprisingly.

[censored]
07-11-2005, 12:23 PM
Thanks everyone for the advice.

[censored]
07-11-2005, 12:24 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What breed are they? I didn't see it mentioned.

[/ QUOTE ]

lab/chessapeake retriever mix.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice mix. My parents have a lab/poodle mix that is pretty sweet, surprisingly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya I love labs the the chessapeake mix gives them a cool looking reddish-brown coat.

Offsprung
07-11-2005, 12:25 PM
Definitly fix them.

You don't want to deal with a 5yo with a puncture wound in his shoulder...

Grisgra
07-11-2005, 12:26 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Definitly fix them.

You don't want to deal with a 5yo with a puncture wound in his shoulder...

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know why everyone thinks that getting a dog fixed will take care of dominance issues. That's just plain nonsense. They're not trying to [censored] each other, they're trying to figure out who is boss.

CollinEstes
07-11-2005, 12:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Definitly fix them.

You don't want to deal with a 5yo with a puncture wound in his shoulder...

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Now if they start peeing on each other it might be a different story.

I don't know why everyone thinks that getting a dog fixed will take care of dominance issues. That's just plain nonsense. They're not trying to [censored] each other, they're trying to figure out who is boss.

[/ QUOTE ]

Offsprung
07-11-2005, 12:28 PM
Do they not become generally less aggressive after being fixed?

NorCalJosh
07-11-2005, 12:31 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


It is strange but here are some ways to do it for your two dogs, but you have to pick which one you think should be dominant.



[/ QUOTE ]


Its also important not to personify the situation. Dogs have a pecking order and will be less agitated once its resolved than if it remains ambiguous.

People will sometimes attempt to "correct" the pecking order out of a sense of being "fair" and all that accomplishes is getting the dogs more upset.

I've read some interesting stuff over the years regarding the pecking order and whether owners are part of it or not. For a while, I believe there was a school of thought that said that a human owner should emulate the behavior of an alpha dog for best results (even advocating "fighting" with your dogs in some sort of strange doggy manner to get the point across). I've also read that that's a bunch of crap - dogs aren't all that smart, but smart enough to realize you aren't one.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's hilarious. Someone actually suggested you'd get down on all fours and bite your dog? I can tell you what, if I tried to do that to my six month old puppy he'd kick my ass, I can only imagine doing this to a fully grown dog.


Another thing regarding dogs and their fighting. Don't be alarmed by the presence of some blood. Your dogs fighting may look like they are trying to murder each other but there are safety mechanisms built in where they really won't hurt each other for real (other than tearing up each other's ears and noses and what not). Obviously there are exceptions, especially when the dogs have been bred to fight.

Swede

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I don't think biting was part of the regimen. Play-bowing (when your dog puts his chest to the ground with his front paws forward and his hind legs standing) and then flipping the dog over and pinning him on his back and making growling noises was though.

I've also read some stuff about why dogs do the things they do and like the things they like. I believe that most doggy experts (whatever that means) believe that dogs are essentially wolves that are trapped in adolesence. I've also heard of dogs referred to as having suckered humans into raising their young in a great evolutionary con game.

Next time your dog tries to lick your face, throw up the hamburder you just ate into his mouth and you'll have made his day. I also now know why my male dog completely grooves on having his chest petted. There is such a thing as learning too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

actually, that is closer to what i do. i've never actually bitten my dog, but with my belgian malinois, when she was a puppy, the bitch was hyperactive, so we'd wrestle with her and her sister, and whenever they started taking things a little to serious, we'd just flip them on their back and pin them down, get really close and give a little snarl. they always got the point and calmed down, got a chagrined look on their face and whimpered a little bit.

i didnt know that was an actual school of thought for some time though. i just thought i was a dumb ass who liked playing with my dogs, and that seemed to work.

and please, fill me in on the whole chest patting thing, i'm sure it will make me view things in a whole new light. just what i wanted.



growing up a friend of mine had a little minature poodle named smokey who had this habit of getting in the way 100% of the time. anyway, one time he managed to get stepped on and somehow his dick got stuck in the "out" position. it was really disturbing, as it came really close to dragging along the floor when he ran, and you would definately get slapped around by it when he was jumping around "playing"

TStoneMBD
07-11-2005, 12:32 PM
alot of good advice here. i like the advice of the poster who mentioned preestablishing dominance by having one dog come in the house first, eat first, etc.

i do think this is a good idea and should fix the problem as long as the passive dog doesnt become rebellious. however, i dont really think its fair to the dog to be second at everything. try to spend some extra attention when alone with the dog and treat him like your cutietootie while the other dog as your machoman.

be careful having your dogs around children after this, at least for some time. you really dont want a kids hand getting bit off because youre going to suffer the consequences.

i dont like neutering dogs. i dont feel that its fair to them. thats just mo though.

Grisgra
07-11-2005, 12:49 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Do they not become generally less aggressive after being fixed?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily. When we were putting our dog through obedience training the trainer said that the biggest problems he's had have been with unfixed dogs, that there isn't necessarily a relationship. At least, as far as that whole dominance thing is concerned.

(And I have a fixed dog with dominance issues around other dogs, so I know of what I speak.)

I would get the dogs fixed anyway -- it *may* help. But to think that only unfixed dogs go through pecking order/alpha male contests is just wrong.

johnc
07-11-2005, 02:15 PM
My dog & my parent's dog, both females & fixed, got into one these really bad fights. Chewed and bit the crap out of each other, blood, ect. These two are very sweet and loving dogs and NEVER fought with other before (or since). I'm assuming it was one of those situations where they just needed to sort out the pecking order. P.S. they were both so exhusted and chewed up from the ordeal that separation really wasn't necessary.

teamdonkey
07-11-2005, 03:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know why everyone thinks that getting a dog fixed will take care of dominance issues. That's just plain nonsense. They're not trying to [censored] each other, they're trying to figure out who is boss.

[/ QUOTE ]

Removing a dogs testicles eliminates the production of the hormone testosterone. Ever heard of football players going on roid rages? It's because most steriods aim at increasing your testosterone levels. Among other things, testosterone has a tendancy to increase aggression.

Does that mean if a football player stops taking steroids, he'll never beat the crap out of anyone again? No, but it probably reduces the number of asswhoopings. Same with dogs. For what it's worth, fixing a dog at 3-4 months of age is most effective. Since your dogs are already 2 years old it won't do quite as much. this (http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1625&articleid=911) is a good link.

handsome
07-11-2005, 03:22 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, discipline is necessary in my opinion. I'm not saying beat the crap out of the dog, but a good yank at his neckhair seems to get the point across when he's being disruptive. Then there is the method my wife's grandpa uses to train his dogs. He always has a Border Collie to help out with chores around his farm. Since he has cows, sheep and chickens that all need to be herded the dog needs to learn to use different tactics for the various animals. Usually at some point in the training he puppy will get too excited/angry and one of the chickens ends up dying. The grandpa then takes the chicken corpse by the feet and proceeds to beat the dog with the dead chicken. Like magic the dog learns to never ever touch the chickens while herding them. Brilliant, in my opinion.

Swede

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. This got a chuckle out of me.

Sephus
07-11-2005, 04:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
you really dont want a kids hand getting bit off because youre going to suffer the consequences.

[/ QUOTE ]

"gee i wish that kid still had his hand 'cause i wouldn't be in jail right now. poor me."

nervous
07-11-2005, 09:46 PM
I have two dogs, both female, and up until about a year ago (when they were 7) they got into fights maybe twice a year.

One fight was bad enough that one dog had a cut right above the snout between the eyes about a half inch deep. The other dog had part of her ear bitten off laying on the ground. The worst part was when she shook her head to get the blood off like dogs do after they come inside and are wet. Blood went all over the walls throughout the whole house.

Sucks, but they are both older now and don't get into any fights.