The Culture of Politics and Vice Versa

[Zeno]

The French adore Patti Smith (http://www.comcast.net/entertainment/index.jsp?cat=ENTERTAINMENT&fn=/2005/07/10/175173.html)

From the Article:

' Smith, 58, was presented with the insignia of Commander of the Order of the Arts and Letters by Culture Minister Renaud Donnedieu de Vabres.

The ministry, in a statement, noted Smith's appreciation for 19th century French poet Arthur Rimbaud, and praised her as "one of the most influential artists in women's rock 'n' roll." '

Arthur Rimbaud was a wild and savage romantic, drunken rebel and rambler, sexual misfit shot by his male lover, who composed his entire oeuvre of poems between the ages of 15 and 19, mostly under the influence of absinthe and opium. After that he stopped writing poems and lead a wondering and worthless life until he finally decomposed into a deliurm at Marseilles. He is buried in his home town, Charleville-mezeres near the Belgium border.

He is a perfect mirror for the French, right down to his Grand Poems.

-Zeno

[Arnfinn Madsen]

LOL,
they probably adore him for great poems. BTW, having a male lower and using some dope is something that many Parisians would not raise their eyebrow about.

[mslif]

I studied his poems in France. They are beautifully written. As for your comparison to all french... Don't be an idiot please!

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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I studied his poems in France. They are beautifully written. As for your comparison to all french... Don't be an idiot please!

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Being from a country, that praises a bad actor who then went on to support dictators conducting massacres, he has nothing to brag about Mslif. He has lost before it starts.

Silly game though.

[Zeno]

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Don't be an idiot please!

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If it pleases me to be an idiot I will do so and that is my business.

But the mirror I spoke of was in regards to two different revolutions - The American and the French. The American Revolution carried on and when forth in a positive manner, The French Revolution decomposed into a delirium of violence and then a dictator sprang forth from Corsica and led the French into a war orgy. All done in the Grand Manner. Sort of an analogy to Rimbuad's teenage years. I approve of all this rubbish just to make that clear.



If you find nothing amusing about the French honoring the Punk Rocker Patti Smith in addition to the cultural minister making reference to Patti's infatuation with Arthur Rimbuad, then I submit you have no appreciation of the absurd.

All praise to Paul Verlaine.


Le Misanthrope

[mslif]

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Don't be an idiot please!

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If it pleases me to be an idiot I will do so and that is my business.

But the mirror I spoke of was in regards to two different revolutions - The American and the French. The American Revolution carried on and when forth in a positive manner, The French Revolution decomposed into a delirium of violence and then a dictator sprang forth from Corsica and led the French into a war orgy. All done in the Grand Manner. Sort of an analogy to Rimbuad's teenage years. I approve of all this rubbish just to make that clear.



If you find nothing amusing about the French honoring the Punk Rocker Patti Smith in addition to the cultural minister making reference to Patti's infatuation with Arthur Rimbuad, then I submit you have no appreciation of the absurd.

All praise to Paul Verlaine.


Le Misanthrope

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You are so right... The american revolution lead to hapiness and everything being "positive"... Slavery was just such a wonderful time in your history.
I'll admit that comparing Rimbaud to Patty Smith is completeky idiotic and an insult to french literature but don't put an entire culture in the same bag.

[Zeno]

The country one is born in is a random joke of the universe and does not require a defense.

You got a laugh from my initial post. That is all I was really after.

Aganist the assult of laughter nothing can stand. - Mark Twain.

.

[Zeno]

Positive progression comes in steps, not wholesale, that is human nature. Don't you start being an idiot, now.

-Zeno

[mslif]

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Positive progression comes in steps, not wholesale, that is human nature. Don't you start being an idiot, now.

-Zeno

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If your theory is good for you and then it applies to France as well, smartass.

[Zeno]

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If your theory is good for you and then it applies to France as well, smartass.

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Wrong! The French Revolution went BACKWARDS in fits and starts, and then moved forward again. America, in fits and starts, moved forward since the Revolution; until we progressed into the marvelous and grand envy of the entire world - Unparalleled in glory, intelligence, and overall goodness (for the last 145 years mainly due to the Republican Party starting with Abe Lincoln). We also have a sense of humor in America; the one exception, it appears, is this politics forum, where seriousness has become a loathsome and vile disease.

-Zeno

[Cyrus]

Of all the anti-French things to come down the pike, this surely takes the cake. Or should I say the soufflet?

You dare take on the French at what they excel? In culture??

You seriously want to compare the state's attitude towards the arts, between the United States and France? Boy, is this one lost game!

The French culture policy always had guts. Do I dare bring up Malreaux, who served as Minister of Culture under that most revered of right-wing French icons, the General? The Imaginary Museum of his is only the tip of the iceberg. In order to comprehend the chasm between how the two states viewed Art, I will only point out that the French policitians of the ruling elite have always maintainted that the Right has the Elysées and the Left has Rive Gauche (ie the Arts). This is why the French (right-wing) minister of Culture has no problem whatsoever, in fact relishes the occasion, in awarding a mdeal to a (former) punk rocker whose lyrics once called for his decimation!

But the examples are virtually endless.

As to Arthur Rimbaud, it's saddening to see his life belittled so pithily and ignorantly, he of the most stellar course across the poet's sky. Since when has it become a thing to mock stopping writing poetry (what a mystery, right there!) at 19 years old and then embarking on the most pedestrian of lives, with all its pettiness and tedium? This is what most writers have dreamed of doing, but instead did it, if they were gifted and lucky, in reverse: Growing old unnoticed and living in tedium and then finally some quick recognition - then death.

The day that Washington takes a leaf from the French cahier about Art & Politics is the day we should truly start to worry. In the meantime, America's leaders remain as parochial and inconsequential (and as dangerous) as ever.

--Cyrus

[mslif]

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If your theory is good for you and then it applies to France as well, smartass.

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Wrong! The French Revolution went BACKWARDS in fits and starts, and then moved forward again. America, in fits and starts, moved forward since the Revolution; until we progressed into the marvelous and grand envy of the entire world - Unparalleled in glory, intelligence, and overall goodness (for the last 145 years mainly due to the Republican Party starting with Abe Lincoln). We also have a sense of humor in America; the one exception, it appears, is this politics forum, where seriousness has become a loathsome and vile disease.

-Zeno

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I have a sense of humor, I am laughing out loud right now at what you said because it does not make any sense /images/graemlins/smile.gif
If seriousness is such a vile disease to you, maybe you should go back to OOT.

[wacki]

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I have a sense of humor, I am laughing out loud right now at what you said because it does not make any sense /images/graemlins/smile.gif

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It makes perfect sense. It, like many things Zeno will say, is over your head.

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If seriousness is such a vile disease to you, maybe you should go back to OOT.

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Wow, just wow.

Your history (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/dosearch.php?Cat=&Forum=,,All_Forums,,&Words=&Sear chpage=2&Limit=25&where=&newerval=&newertype=&olde rval=&oldertype=&daterange=&bodyprev=&Name=39603)


Zeno's history (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/dosearch.php?Cat=&Forum=,All_Forums,&Words=&Search page=1&Limit=25&where=&newerval=&newertype=&olderv al=&oldertype=&daterange=&bodyprev=&Name=514)

I think I will let the links do the talking.

Thanks for the laugh Zeno. I've been studying multiple regression for the last 5 hours and my brain hurts. I needed a thread like this to cheer me up.

[Cyrus]

Are you trying here to belittle the impact of the French Revolution across the globe?

Are you seriously suggesting that the French social revolution had the same impact as had the American national liberation revolution?

I hope you don't. Where it mattered at the time, i.e. only Europe (sorry!), the French revolt started an avalanche of national liberation movements, that either culminated in nationalistic success (eg the dismemberment of the Ottoman empire through the Balkan revolts and the resulting Balkan states of today; Italy coming together through a series of rebellions; Germany uniting its hundred statelets; etc), in political liberalisation (eg Russia) or in regression back to autocratic regimes (eg the post-1848 restoration in Paris).

As to the "outcome" of the French Revolution, it had no different outcome than any other social revolution you'd care to bring up : Starting with the most massive support, it ends in the hands of very few, or even One, and degenerates into a bad copy of the regime it upends. But that's how History moves forward (not necessaeily towards "progress"), with fits and starts, just like you wrote, and never "methodically". Not in France, and not in Amérique.

The seeds of success of the social aspect of the American Revolution of 1776 lay in its very circumstances: small farmers and merchants, away from the Metropolis, wanting to establish what was pretty much a secular, decentralised (very close to anarchist) society. But the same thing immediately happened to the American Revolution, as far as its social aspect went:


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Shays' Rebellion (http://www.arthistoryclub.com/art_history/Shays%27_Rebellion) was the armed uprising of small farmers angered by high debt and tax burdens, in Western Massachusetts, that started on August 29, 1786. The tax system at the time was highly regressive. As a result, many small farmers were forced to sell their land to meet their debts, often less than 1/3 real price.


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The lack of a standing army under the American government of the time forced the eastern elites to create a private army of mercenaries to quell what was becoming an increasingly effective rebellion.


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In 1791, the Federal government imposed an excise tax on whiskey. This tax was highly unpopular on the American frontier, and in July 1794, in Allegheny County, Pennsylvania, a Federal marshal was attacked by a mob and a regional inspector's house was burned. On August 7, 1794, George Washington called out the militias of several states and personally led a force of 13,000 to suppress the unrest. The event has gone down in history as the Whiskey Rebellion (http://www.arthistoryclub.com/art_history/Whiskey_Rebellion). By his actions, Washington ensured that Federal law would be upheld and that the new nation would not fall to insurrection.


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The whiskey tax was repealed in 1802, never having been collected with much success.


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[Zeno]

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Are you trying here to belittle the impact of the French Revolution across the globe?


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Me? You take such affront. But the good is out, well-done post. Both the American and French Revolution impacted the entire world, overall for the good. The French helped the American Revolution which in turned helped inspire...well not just the French but many other peoples road to freedom. Shay's and the Whiskey rebellion are well known small-time rumblings that pale in comparison to the excesses of the froggies Revolution that bent inward on itself for a few years and need not be spelled out. I don't wish to embarrass you.

I drank some great American wine for dinner and then made a traditional jab at the froggies, which is a great American pastime, and look what happened. What fun it all is.

You just can’t bring yourself to admit that Americans are better than the French in almost all things that really matter. Why you don’t see this is rather puzzling.

-Zeno

[Zeno]

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You dare take on the French at what they excel? In culture??


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The French excel in culture? Besides the French, who thinks that? And you should qualify that statement to European Culture. America has its own culture which disconnected from Europe long ago. It has its own greatness, which I will not spell out least I be completely embarrassed.

One of these days I'm visiting my friend in Paris, but at the moment he is working in China so it will have to wait. I'm looking forward to seeing some great art. Degas especially.

Rimbaud needs more exposure, I gave it to him in a small way.

You need to relax. Read some Thomas Carlyle.

-Zeno

[Cyrus]

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The French excel in culture? Besides the French, who thinks that?

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Toute Europe, still today.

And you should realize that by "excel", I am referring not just to French creators, but to the illustrious cultivation &amp; patronage of Art by French authorities and citizenry alike, throughout History.

The French have acquired, as a matter of circumstance, a most healthy appetite for dissent and questioning authority -- a fine ingredient in the recipe for Art.

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America has its own culture which disconnected from Europe long ago.

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American culture operates on a radically more populist basis than European culture! Personally, I'm glad we have both. "Her life was saved by rock and roll."

[Cyrus]

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You just can’t bring yourself to admit that Americans are better than the French in almost all things that really matter.

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I'm heading for Croisette, this afternoon, do an hands-on comparison.

[Phat Mack]

Nice post. I knew there were reasons to admire the French in addition to their political views. BTW, Leonard Cohen has acknowleded his debt to both Rimbaud and Baudelaire. Maybe the French could give him a little somthin'.