AJs preflop. cap or call?

[MarkSummers]

game is 10/20 full handed with 46% seeing flop, a bunch of loose aggressives playing.

I'm UTG+1 and open raise with AJ spades. UTG+2 cold calls and MP 1 3 bets. MP2 calls 3 cold and the bb calls. Back to me. Cap or call? Or does it really matter?

[DcifrThs]

cap.

-Barron

[x vikram]

If i was you and i did not have a strong read on the raiser i would call because there are few hands, from a RR, that you can beat and many will have you dominated. The other callers out there probably wont fold to another raise due to the insane amount of "pot odds" they may thinky that they are getting, being UTG doesnt help either as it appears they dont respect position therefore by putting you first to act even if a flop comes:

A 10 2

And you come in for a raise, followed by the pre flop RRer Re Reasing you bet, when the action folds to you would you call in the hope of possibly being up against a draw pair that missed a set? If i dont have a read on the player i would play it safe and fold if not call till the river.

This is the main reason i would just call pre flop, you could be in big trouble if you were up agasint AQ, AK.

[DeezNutz3]

[ QUOTE ]
cap.



[/ QUOTE ]

[xniNja]

call... even in an aggressive game you probably aren't capping the best hand or even the best draw. If you don't see some jacks or some spades your hand is worthless.. and if you see an Ace you *should* be playing it slow.

[JimmyV]

Capping increases variance with no likely benefit, and yes, of course, you may be dominated. Don't do it unless you really have specific reads that give you an idea about the way you're going to make a move for the pot later if the board is a certain way.

Fundamentally I think capping is foolish in this scenario unless you've really thought your reasons through.

JimmyV

[SoBeDude]

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cap.

-Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

Yuk.

-Scott

[ike]

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Don't do it unless you really have specific reads that give you an idea about the way you're going to make a move for the pot later if the board is a certain way.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is silly and irrelevant. There are like 57435 LAGs in this already huge pot, no one is taking it away. The cap would be a value bet plain and simple.

[SoBeDude]

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Don't do it unless you really have specific reads that give you an idea about the way you're going to make a move for the pot later if the board is a certain way.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is silly and irrelevant. There are like 57435 LAGs in this already huge pot, no one is taking it away. The cap would be a value bet plain and simple.

[/ QUOTE ]

he has only 4 opponents in the hand, and he is not ahead preflop. Capping here is not a +EV play and in fact, flies in the face of TOP concepts.

-Scott

[brick]

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and in fact, flies in the face of TOP concepts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think capping is usually right. But this statement is not true. It is very possible that a cap with AJ could cause AK or AQ to fold incorrectly later in the hand.

For example: you cap, the flop misses AK, your opponent folds, and AJs holds up unimproved.

[ike]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that capping was necessarilly right. I usually don't here, but IMO its probably close in the game OP describes. I just meant that deception value is not an important consideration in whether or not to do it. Its a value bet, I don't know if its a good one.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
cap.

-Barron

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Yuk.

-Scott

[/ QUOTE ]

im not autobetting all flops here...cap is for value. i dont have the 3btetor beat. but i have plenty of equity against him enough to want to get this huge pot to 4 bets. with all those other players in there i dont him if im 2nd or 3rd or whatever best (smaller pairs etc.. AK from the 3bettor) at the moment.

-Barron

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that capping was necessarilly right. I usually don't here, but IMO its probably close in the game OP describes. I just meant that deception value is not an important consideration in whether or not to do it. Its a value bet, I don't know if its a good one.

[/ QUOTE ]

i jumped in and said cap. i can't remembe rthe last time i've done it and in the heat of battle i probably would call. but i think the cap has merits. you have good position vs. the raiser. an A or J may win the pot on spade boards in which you can raise a better A out of the pot. clearly the big pairs aren't going anywhere. you can check the flop and see the action and gain a lot of value from pupming a good draw. you also have a straight draw and a better hand that at least 1/2 the opponents in there so far or a better prospect hand than up to 3/4 of them.

i was probably too hasty to say its an easy cap, but it has its merits, and is in no way terrible. how much will you lose overall from this cap if its dead wrong. if its 100% wrong you lose 1 sb.

-Barron

[SoBeDude]

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and in fact, flies in the face of TOP concepts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think capping is usually right. But this statement is not true. It is very possible that a cap with AJ could cause AK or AQ to fold incorrectly later in the hand.

For example: you cap, the flop misses AK, your opponent folds, and AJs holds up unimproved.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh please. this is a LOOSE game, remember?

This is a serious misapplication of the TOP concepts.

AK isn't going to fold on the flop getting huge pot odds to call, and the chance of AJs winning unimproved is almost negligible, so is essentially irrelevant.

in a LOOSE game, the key concept is allowing your opponents to make mistakes postflop. This is how you make money. When you make the pot huge by capping, you essentially make it correct for all your opponents to keep playing to any sort of draw, and the value of your hand goes down.

And the flush gets there only 4% of the time, so given that you're contributing 20% to the pot, u can't justify the cap based on the nut flush potential.

[BoneCollector]

Just curious Barron, In a laggy game like this, despite the poor position, would you (or anyone) lean towards the preflop cap with hands that play well multiway (J10s, QJs, KJs)? Or are you only in here with an Ace-big suited.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Just curious Barron, In a laggy game like this, despite the poor position, would you (or anyone) lean towards the preflop cap with hands that play well multiway (J10s, QJs, KJs)? Or are you only in here with an Ace-big suited.

[/ QUOTE ]

the A of the suit is the reasonfor the cap imo. but this may be worth it with JTs b/c of the 4 ways it can make a straight vs. the nut flush...sux b/c of flush redraws which are likely out there though.

-Barron

[brick]

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and in fact, flies in the face of TOP concepts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think capping is usually right. But this statement is not true. It is very possible that a cap with AJ could cause AK or AQ to fold incorrectly later in the hand.

For example: you cap, the flop misses AK, your opponent folds, and AJs holds up unimproved.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a LOOSE game, remember?

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, the table and player reads are important.

[bernie]

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in a LOOSE game, the key concept is allowing your opponents to make mistakes postflop. This is how you make money. When you make the pot huge by capping, you essentially make it correct for all your opponents to keep playing to any sort of draw, and the value of your hand goes down.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you're going to play the pot manipulation game, the pot is already big enough that you'll have to likely wait to the turn to protect anything if you hit it. There's no reason not to make it 5 bets bigger. You're already looking at 20 bets. Given the table, you could also have the best hand at this point.

This is an easy cap.

b

[bernie]

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how much will you lose overall from this cap if its dead wrong. if its 100% wrong you lose 1 sb.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's 100% wrong you still won't lose the whole 1 sb. Especially offset by the 4 other bets going in against it. On top of that, you may win the pot.

Given the description it's not like these guys' preflop raises should be respected. If the person 3 betting me was a tight(er) 3 bettor, even though he might be LAG with single raises, then I'd consider just calling it.

b

[DcifrThs]

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how much will you lose overall from this cap if its dead wrong. if its 100% wrong you lose 1 sb.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's 100% wrong you still won't lose the whole 1 sb. Especially offset by the 4 other bets going in against it. On top of that, you may win the pot.

Given the description it's not like these guys' preflop raises should be respected. If the person 3 betting me was a tight(er) 3 bettor, even though he might be LAG with single raises, then I'd consider just calling it.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

as has been shown before im clearly an idiot.

you keep your equity share even if its 100% wrong.

Barron

[SoBeDude]

OK, the table and player reads are important.

No.

poster said it was something like 45% VP$IP right? this is showdown poker and reads are irrelevant. you have to turn over the best hand at the showdown to scoop a pot here.

-Scott

[brick]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, the table and player reads are important.

No.

poster said it was something like 45% VP$IP right? this is showdown poker and reads are irrelevant. you have to turn over the best hand at the showdown to scoop a pot here.

-Scott

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I'm trying to agree with you and you still argue.
/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[bernie]

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poster said it was something like 45% VP$IP right?

[/ QUOTE ]

He also said...
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a bunch of loose aggressives playing.


[/ QUOTE ]

Combine those, and it's perfect for capping preflop with AJs.

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this is showdown poker and reads are irrelevant.

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Not necesarily. There are usually spots where hands become more defined in these games. Many times it's on the bigger streets.

b

[SoBeDude]

Hi Bernie,

Combine those, and it's perfect for capping preflop with AJs.

Please show me some math behind that. it seems those facts draw me to the opposite conclusion. You do not have the best hand here. you're going to have to get lucky and hit a flop hard to scoop a pot. how does this justify a cap? he said they were LAGs, not maniacs.

-Scott

[bernie]

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You do not have the best hand here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why couldn't you have the best hand? Wouldn't you cap this with AQs or AKs?

You're giving LAGs too much credit for having hands that, combined, you won't have an equity edge against. They are not tactically raising preflop. The thing to watch for is the guy who has somewhat tighter raising/3betting standards if he gets active.

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you're going to have to get lucky and hit a flop hard to scoop a pot. how does this justify a cap?

[/ QUOTE ]

You might not have to hit the flop that hard. Top pair wins more than enough.

b