Getting better at postflop play... How?

[Chubbers]

Hi Guys,

OK so i've got a few books here that i have read pretty thoroughly. This includes GSiHE and SSHEwbwep and Advanced HE. I'd say i'm now very diciplined in my Pre-flop play and also manage things pretty well in different table circumstances.

My question is this - i'm still losing postflop. I'm not sure if im holding my cards too long, suffering bad beats, etc... If i have AKs and raise from middle position (with 2 limpers only in the pot thus far) then get called down by 2 others and the limpers also call... if i miss the flop of say 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 10 /images/graemlins/club.gif, am i supposed to stay in the hand with 2 overcards? Should i bet? Should i check/call? Do i fold?

I must have too many leaks post flop which is causing me to lose money. My preflop discipline normally means i hover around the mark, but over time i end up losing.

Any suggestions?

[Piper Tim]

I don't know that I will be much help here because I too am working on how to play overcards when the flop misses. But, I am going to take a stab at your example and if I misplay hopefully somebody will correct me.

With no reads on your table, I am going to assume that it is a typical small stakes table with quite a few loose passive players, a couple tight players and maybe one LAG. I also assume that the players in the pot are loose passive as nobody raised or reraised.

Although the flop missed you, your preflop raise indicated that you had a hand. This could mean anything from AKs to a highpair. The flop probably missed a number of your opponents too, but with 4 people playing somebody probably has you beat. There are 6 cards that give me top pair, I may or may not have a backdoor flush and straight draws. I think this is about 9 outs, (6 for the A's and K's, 2 for my backdoor flush, and 1 for straight).

If it is checked to me, I bet. I hope that a couple of the limpers fold. If somebody bets into me, I think I raise and hope to force some others out. If my bet gets raised, I call.

What I do on the turn and river is determined by how many people stay in the pot, how big the pot gets, and what cards come.

I am not real comfortable playing these hands, and I suck at them. They are tricky with lots of variables. I have read, reread, and rereread the section on postflop play in SSHE. I have also spent some time replaying hands with PT.

[AKQJ10]

Specifically regarding how to play overcards, the short answer is (like everything in poker), "It depends." A longer answer is here: http://poker.wikicities.com/wiki/LHE:Flop:Two_overcards

As for the general question of how to get better at postflop play, I can't say I'm "there" yet, but I do have a pretty clear conceptual basis of how to proceed. Going back and reviewing your own hand histories if you're playing at an online site with them is a must. Try to calculate how you would have played the hand if you'd had all day to properly estimate your outs, etc. If you're still in doubt then posting hand histories on the appropriate forum or in this one is helpful.

Most importantly, don't judge your success by short-term results! You probably know this but it bears repeating. See here if this is an issue for you (as it often is for most of us): http://poker.wikicities.com/wiki/Beginners_FAQ#Interpretation_of_results

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
There are 6 cards that give me top pair, I may or may not have a backdoor flush and straight draws. I think this is about 9 outs, (6 for the A's and K's, 2 for my backdoor flush, and 1 for straight).

[/ QUOTE ]

Be careful, though!: You can't count 6 full outs for the A's and K's because you don't know that top pair will win the pot. (Someone might have something like bottom pair with an ace kicker, which is a particularly insidious problem called "reverse domination".) Maybe 3-4 four outs is appropriate.

The straight outs are worth less than an out because you have to hit Q-J runner-runner, in other words two gutshots. If you flopped Q-J-T then you could count the backdoor draw as 1.5. But A-K-T is worth much less than that because you have to hit a certain combination of two ranks, in other words only a queen and a jack will help you.

I'd say count 3.5 for top pair, 1.5 for the backdoor flush, and negligible for the b'door straight --> 5 outs.

[kasey2004]

Post trouble hands in the forum for help with play on all streets, very helpful.

/images/graemlins/spade.gif Kasey /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[Pov]

I think the problem most people run into with "big cards" that miss is they don't realize what they've got is a drawing hand. If I give you QJs and a board I'll bet you'd have a good idea what to do with it because you're comfortable (probably) with drawing hands. When up against one or possibly two opponents there is a reasonable chance you actually hold the best hand, but against several opponents you are almost certainly drawing.

Well your AK missed and as others have stated with 4 opponents it is virtually certain that someone else has at least a pair of something so you are behind and drawing. The only difference is you were the pre-flop raiser so you've given away your hand to some extent, but you could also pose as holding a high pair. In a low limit game against 4 opponents posing as the high pair is unlikely to get you anywhere since anyone that matched the board is probably coming along at least until an Ace hits the board.

Armed with this information what should you do in the various situations that might arise. I'll second AKQJ10's estimation of 5 outs as that's about where I would put myself in your situation. There are too many AT's, KT's, A6s's etc. to count your overcards as 6 outs and I'm going to make the assumption you do in fact have a backdoor flush draw to get you up to 5. That's a pretty weak draw, but because of all your callers the pot already contains 10 bets or more. So what might happen:

It is bet and raised in front of you - easy fold

It is bet in front of you - we already know we are getting odds to see the turn so the question is between calling or raising. If there are no callers between you and the bettor, a raise is very tempting to attempt to fold out the field and to try for a free card. I would mostly be making the play for the free card here. If you don't think those things are very likely, I see nothing wrong with just calling and trying to get to the turn as cheaply as possible.

It is checked to you - I think this is a tough one and you really need to have been paying attention to you opponents. Your bet will be offering at least 11:1 to the field. If I was first to act with 4 players after me I would almost never bet here, though I might check-raise if the last player bet and he was the type to bet just because it was checked to him. If I was one of the later players I would be more inclined to bet for the free card potential on the turn. When you say "called down by two others" it is unclear to me whether they were behind you or in the blinds and that would affect my play.

So let's assume there was a bet from somewhere and you made it to the turn 3-handed. That means there is now something like 6-7 big bets in the pot now. If you pick up your flush draw you've got an easy time of it since you'll have more than enough outs to see the river. If you don't you're very likely going to need to fold here unimproved. This is why I would have been inclined to go for a free card on the flop *if I thought it had a decent chance of working* since I know my hand can't take much of any heat here on the turn if it doesn't hit.

I think the toughest decision is if a J or Q hits on the turn. Your straight outs are strong, but it further clouds your overcard outs since you're now much more likely to be up against two pair or a hand that will be two pair or a straight when you hit your top pair. I think in this situation you just have to go with your gut and what you know about your opponents and the types of hands they might be holding.

This may seem like a lot to think about in the heat of battle, but it comes up over and over again so you should really spend some time going over these possible scenarios and try be ready for them. If you can master these types of situations you'll be in good shape to be a consistent winner.

[12AX7]

Well... I'm going to give you the easy answer from HLLHE (Lee Jones)

Essentially he states:

"We believe you are not losing much by folding in this situation if there's a bet ahead of you. If it' checked ahead of you take the free card and hope you turn top pair.

...

Expert players are able to make some money with two overcards but you are not giving up much if you by dropping them unless you have other possibilities [discussed later in the text]..."[WLLHE 2nd P.109]

That having been said WLLHE is for that mythical loose low limit game. And it wasn't aimed at making you an expert.

So if you want to optimize, then I'd have to side with the rest of the posters and say, some study is required.

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