Two steals gone a bit awry

[istewart]

Sup fellas,

Here are two hands I played tonight. Curious as to your flop decision is on each (and the turn decision if you continue).

#1

Villain here is 75/6 over a few dozen hands, but likes to steal a lot. Have seen him shown relative passivity postflop but I have not had enough time with him to have him pegged for something.


Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero...


#2

Villain here is donkish. Loose and passive preflop, occasionally does these donkbets on the flop with bad draws, bottom pair, etc.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero...

[istewart]

Here are my thoughts for each. Tell me what you think.


#1: I like folding. There are no feasible draws he can be betting here, the ace of course sucks (while he could be bluffing it, he can often be bluffing with a better hand -- TT-88).

#2: I like calling, for a few reasons, but I think it is very close. For one thing, he could be betting a draw and check the turn, allowing me to see two cards for 1 SB. Secondly, there's an outside chance I have the best hand here. Thirdly, I'd rather not give off the image that I fold so easily on this flop after open-raising (not a huge part, but a factor IMO nonethless).

[benkath1]

Hand 1 I call and fold turn UI.

Hand 2 I raise flop, check turn UI, fold river UI.

It's late, so this may be terrible, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[beset7]

hand #1: maybe I play short-handed too much but I'm raising the flop and betting the turn. If he calls the turn I don't pay him off on the river and I take a free showdown if I can get it.

hand #2: I fold or raise. I think calling is awful.

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]
hand #1: maybe I play short-handed too much but I'm raising the flop and betting the turn. If he calls the turn I don't pay him off on the river and I take a free showdown if I can get it.

hand #2: I fold or raise. I think calling is awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

For hand #1, what range of hands do you put him on after he bets this flop?

For hand #2 I don't like raising that much at all. I could live with it a little more if I had a 3-straight and/or a 3-flush but given that I think he'll check the turn quite a good percentage of the time here, I don't get the purpose of raising. I can see folding though, of course.

[TightIsRight]

[ QUOTE ]
hand #1: maybe I play short-handed too much but I'm raising the flop and betting the turn. If he calls the turn I don't pay him off on the river and I take a free showdown if I can get it.

hand #2: I fold or raise. I think calling is awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

[TightIsRight]

[/ QUOTE ]

For hand #1, what range of hands do you put him on after he bets this flop?



[/ QUOTE ]

based on his stats, any two

[JKDStudent]

Hand 1:
I raise. If he re-raises, I call and fold turn ui. If he calls, I hope he checks the turn, and I check behind if an overcard falls. This gives me two cards to try to improve instead of one. If no face cards come, I might call a river bet. Then again, I think that steal situations are a weak point for me. Time to fire up poker tracker and review some past hands.

Hand 2:
I think I fold here. Heads up, pot is small, and I don't see this being won ui. BB just bet into the pfr on a ragged flop, so unless he's betting a flush draw heads up, he's got a piece of this. The only thing I'm not sure about is image. I don't know how much I like being seen to fold for a bet after raising pf. I don't know that I don't like it, mind you... just something to think about. But a call doesn't seem to be worth it.

[thesharpie]

Hand 1 I raise the flop, bet turn. If you're sure he's passive postflop even in heads up situations after trying to steal then a fold is ok. I find they usually turn aggressive in these situations, though.

Hand 2, let's say you have 6 and a bit outs, around 6.5 to 1 to improve by the turn. Getting 5.5 to 1 on your call is a bit thin, but the implied odds, plus the chance he'll check the turn, plus the chance you have the best hand makes calling better than folding IMO. You also improve your table image or whatever, as you said.
If you raise for a free card and he grants you it you're putting in 2SB against 6.5SB and you're slightly better than 3 to 1 to improve by the river. These looks like better odds, the trouble is he might not give us a free card, and he might've checked the turn anyway letting us put in 1SB against 5.5SB to see the river.

I call teh flop! If he's very passive when raised, but will continue firing facing no resistance I prefer raising for a free card.

[@bsolute_luck]

raise 'em both.

hand #1: i (as villain) do this sort of thing with small pocket pairs. you have a hand, so it is a sorta semi-bluff. whether i call down or not is dependent on my read of you (Hero). if called down, i wouldn't pay off on the river.

hand #2: it's really tough to say how many outs you have since he might donk bet the flush draw or lower pair, so you could have all 6 overcards, but you may not. with position and a passive postflop player, i'll raise to get a free card on the turn.

[kapw7]

Hand 1
He can bet this flop with anything. However the ace on flop is a scary card even (and especially) for bad players. So you have to raise here and let the hand go if he still shows agression as you have virtually no outs to call. A few times you needto calldown as well so you won't become a target for steals

Hand 2
I don't like to overplay such weak draws. You can raise if you think he can fold or more likely you can get a free card. But chances are that you'll get a free turn anyway unless you are pretty sure he is going to fire again on the turn.
Folding is also a valid play. You don't have the odds to call if he is ahead and it is a good idea to let him think that he can steal easily from you so you can later punish him with a better hand and a bigger pot.

[Rev. Good Will]

Awesome spot to throw it I wish my $ wasn't tied up in the casino so I can start playing pokah again /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

1 - just being a curious nit, does this count as a stop and go? might be cause i'm a crazy lag, but given your read, I'm not gonna give him credit for an A right away(what hands has he been stealing with btw?) and just raise it, and see what happens. No free card on a turn blank if checked to for him. this is of course, villian hasn't been trying to steal with A-rag

2 - bah, pot size sucks blows, though villian could be holding anything, i think either calling or folding is gonna be the right move. you're a 1:6.8 dog to improve, so do you think you have the implied odds to call? either villian has nothing, and when you catch and raise, he folds (maybe just calling would be a better line to get more $...?, meh, who am i kidding, i don't like that line) or he has a hand, and when you catch and raise, villian calls down. I don't think you have the implied odds here, so i'm dropping this.