got called a donkey after this hand? [Archive]

View Full Version : got called a donkey after this hand?

rivered_again

07-09-2005, 07:24 PM

UTG is a pure maniac (40/21/10)
rest of table is fairly passive

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (8 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (8 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 raises, MP2 calls, CO folds, Button calls, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG 3-bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Button folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (11 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

River: (15 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Hero 3-bets, UTG caps, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 27 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Kh Jc (flush, ace high).
UTG has Qs Ad (one pair, aces).
MP2 has 4d Ac (two pair, aces and fours).
Outcome: Hero wins 27 BB. 

Flop: second pair, good kicker. Backdoor nut flush draw. Any Q or T on the turn would give me an inside straight draw. Any K or J would give me a very good hand as well (thought a K could give someone a straight). It's also shaping up to be a big pot. I see enough reason to call.

Turn: nut flush draw still alive

River: bingo, nut flush. Could still lose to straight flush, but odds of that not even worth considering.

(The irony of the whole situation is if UTG had raised preflop with AQ I would have folded. Maniacs, gotta love em. They don't know how to play good hands)

After the hand, MP1 said he couldn't believe I played that hand that far, or something. Granted I got lucky with the flush, but it was shaping up to be a big pot and I had lots of ways to improve even without the flush. I would play this hand the same if it comes up again.

What is so wrong about the way I played that hand?

Bradyams

07-09-2005, 07:31 PM

I'd want a read on MP1 (what he'd raise with here) to call this. Depending on my read I'd probably give myself somewhere in the neighberhood of 5 outs. You're getting 15:2 on your call if my math is correct so you're not quite getting the correct odds to call. I'm sure those couple of extra bets can be easily made up on the turn and river though.

After that the turn and river are of course standard.

I think UTG is a pretty big donkey for capping the river without a flush though.

KingOtter

07-09-2005, 07:35 PM

Looks good to me.

imported_CaseClosed326

07-09-2005, 07:41 PM

I would have folded the flop, anyone think that is a leak?

grjr

07-09-2005, 08:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would have folded the flop, anyone think that is a leak?

[/ QUOTE ]

All the Micro-Tighties fold that flop. That's why they miss out on the big pots.

jrz1972

07-09-2005, 08:51 PM

Folding the flop is an error.

At the point Hero was being asked to call two cold, he was being offered 8:1 odds (if I'm counting the bets right) assuming UTG just calls. All five K and J outs are nice, and he has the backdoor flush draw and some straight possibilities. We can debate how many outs Hero's hand is worth, but it's surely enough to justify an 8:1 call.

Yeah, I know that UTG ended up 3-betting, but the OP didn't know that was going to happen. Even if Hero had assigned some probability to getting 3-bet, this would still be an easy call.

So yes, folding this flop is a leak.

USDaniels

07-09-2005, 09:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Folding the flop is an error.

...

So yes, folding this flop is a leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bummer, I'd have folded instead of cold calling with MP and BDNFD. I'd have called one, not two. Oh well, that's why I'm here reading!

kapw7

07-09-2005, 09:04 PM

I don't think folding is terrible. The only reason I might have called (other than it is 0.5/1) is that it wasn't raised pre-flop. Our position is bad so we can get sandwiched. On calculating the odds we have to consider that a lot of times we'll need to call later streets as well. These two reasons change our effective odds far from the apparent 8:1.

Pyromaniac

07-09-2005, 09:49 PM

I think "I can't believe you played that far" often translates to "I wish you hadn't played that far", lol /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I'm curious, with the others in this thread, as to the read of MP1's hand. (who is the one who made the comment, right?)

I'm thinking some kind of a straight draw. With the flop raise, maybe KQo or KQs? He doesn't fold till the river, so I'm thinking at that point he realizes he's missed his draw and that anyone with Ax has him beat.

Lots of money in the pot. Everyone called preflop and then it took 3 bets to get half of them out of it and everyone else stays to the river. With four people still live at the river, UTG is a maniac (or desperately wishing to buy the pot, lol?)...his hand hasn't improved since the flop and *any* heart has him badly beat. Even MP2's Ax made two pair and beat him.

Looks okay to me.

p.s. You couldn't lose to a straight flush because you were holding the K/images/graemlins/heart.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

SoftcoreRevolt

07-09-2005, 09:54 PM

Easy call, everyone feels a bit nervous cold calling with a hand that isn't the best made hand and draws which aren't that strong, but you easily have the odds to cold call, and are at worst break even if you are 100% sure UTG1 will 3 bet. (not including implied odds which are huge if he is indeed a maniac.)

Greg J

07-09-2005, 10:29 PM

Okay, this is a good hand to dissect.

Hero is immidiately getting 7:1 (rake) to make this call. I give 5 outs: 1.5 for the 2 Jacks, 1 for BD flush, 1 more for BD straight, and 1.5 for the 3 remaining kings. This means Hero needs 8.2:1 immediate odds.... but this is too generous. And we can all see why: the original raiser is still left to act, so that 7:1 is an illusion, especially given yr read of villian. There is a good chance you will have to call one, or even 2 more back to you. Yr relative position sucks. It really sucks. Reverse implied odds mos def apply here. Not only might you have to call extra bet on the flop, but also possibly on the turn. Plus you could improve to an expensive second best hand on fifth street (catching a K or a J might improve someone else more than you). Let's say you have equal chance of having to call no more bets, calling one more, or calling 2 more:

[7/3)+(8.67/3)+(9.5/3)]= ~8.4

Assuming 5 outs, calling is okay. It's damn close.

I don't think the output is correct. That pot should be much bigger than 11 BB on the turn -- even with rake.

EDIT to add: all true odds include rake.

Pyromaniac

07-09-2005, 10:33 PM

ack, too late to edit my original post.

reread it, thinking I'd missed something, and I had. You were right. you could've lost to the straight flush if someone was holding the 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif and 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif

Would *that* hand have been worth playing out? hmm. what would that have been like? at the flop, it's a flush draw but totally dominated. at the turn, it makes the flush but is still dominated and has one out for the nuts...and at the river, it makes the out. hmm.

rivered_again

07-09-2005, 10:47 PM

The odds of someone holding 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif are around 1 in 1000 so I wasn't going to worry about it /images/graemlins/smile.gif