Re: Poker prophecy and its ilk

[hobbes9324]

And yeah, I know there are differences between the various programs.

What's worth noting is what I assume is PP's reason for barring, or threatening to bar, any or all of these programs - the ABSOLUTE necessity, from their point of view, of preventing even the slightest perception that some players have an advantage, beyond their personal playing skills, over some other player.

I'm a winning player, over my first 500 SNG's, which I know is a small sample size. I plan on continuing to be a winning player. But I don't have any illusions about where I stand as far as PP goes - I am, or hope to be, a parasite, sucking a bit of $$ off the sheep as they graze in the meadow that PP has provided for me. As long as I don't scatter the sheep, PP will leave me be. If I cause a stampede, well.....I'll get swatted.
Nevada casinos routinely bar players who can beat 21, not by cheating, but through their skills. Why would anyone think PP, or any other site, would hesitate to protect their income stream. Being that they are offshore, they are at least relativly protected from the scum-sucking legal system in the US, so I don't see how players have any recourse to whatever they want to do, in any case.

Flame away.....but don't have any illusions about your (and my) position in the meadow....and god bless the sheep.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Nevada casinos routinely bar players who can beat 21, not by cheating, but through their skills. Why would anyone think PP, or any other site, would hesitate to protect their income stream.

[/ QUOTE ]

this isnt why they ban people who beat blackjack. do you see why? holla

[bkbluedevil]

Vegas banning people who can beat blackjack is different than party poker banning people who beat their games in several ways. Most notably, the people who beat blackjack cost the casino money while the people who beat party poker games are it's biggest cutomers, and the people who pay the most in fees (I've already paid over 1100 in rake this month and I'm not even close to people like Gramps, Nick B and Raptor.) Also if vegas can litterally ban everyone who can beat their games consistently while if party poker bans the current sharks the breakeven players would then become the big winners. In other words: someone has to win in poker, no one has to win in blackjack.

[hobbes9324]

Players pay rake - if players BELIEVE (accuratly or not) that a site allows some players an advantage over others beyond their personal skill in playing, it would seem likely that players might choose to leave that site for another that doesn't allow it.

A player's interests, and PP's don't necessarily concide.
What I'm trying to get at is that for PP, any perception that the games are anything but totally honest would be a disaster. No matter how much a single player or group of players contributes in rake, it pales to the amount in total that they are taking in.

Additionally, where will the sharks go if they are barred from the aquarium?

And I agree that the comparison between card counters and online poker is a weak one - what I was trying to get at was
that the operator of a business will bar, or try to bar, any players that may have a negative effect on his income - directly as with a card counter, or indirectly, as above.
And I don't see anything to stop PP, or some other site, from doing so.

[bkbluedevil]

I see what your saying but I strongly disagree. If sites like Empire and Party don't want high volume sharks why do they set up promotions to attract them such as the tourney leaderboards and player points? Also the amount of fees a shark like Gramps pays in a month is def +EV for party even if he does kill a few fish along the way.

[hobbes9324]

Agreed - Gramps, and other sharks, who probably pay in rake what I make in my real job, are more than welcome - as long as they don't scatter the sheep.
But if a shark is caught cheating - or caught doing something that PP feels some players might view as cheating - and if PP thinks that it might lead to players leaving the site in any # - they'll grind up that shark and use him for fertilizer. I just checked - 53,000+ players - lotta rake - if 1% walked due to a perception that the games are unfair.....you do the math.

[citanul]

the point people are missing about your post is the main point, which is also a point i made in another thread on this subject. instead they are picking on the side stuff you chose to substantiate your argument. i don't know why it is exactly you chose to start a new thread to add your input to something that has 100 threads on it on this board already, but whatever.

the point is that they, the poker sites, have it in their best interests to not have people THINK that there is a useful piece of software out there that other people are using to take their money. the common man doesn't want to think "hey, for $20 i could be on even footing as the other people. he wants to think "there is no extraneous service that other people have, so this is just poker, and i like to play poker, it's fun, have my money."

even if we completely throw out the idea that they care if another company is making money by attaching it to their company, this makes sense. it just is in their financial interests to try to not scare away anyone, ever. the sharks are the sharks, software or no, and they'll be there no matter what happens. when you top this off with the fact that the sharks really don't care about the existence of prophecy, it becomes even clearer. the target audience of this product in particular is the player who plays a medium amount, maybe makes a little money, maybe loses a little money, but thinks that hey, $20 to give me an edge, booyah! boom goes the dynamite. those are the people that prophecy snookers into sending them $20 for a service that is nothing but wildly random numbers thrown on a screen. oh, i guess the service also includes as a free throw-in the possibility of having your account siezed because the software is against the site's T&C. but that's never told to you by prophecy.

if prophecy were a legitimate business, they would put in their webpage (or if they have a method of pushing a message to their downloaded client) immediately a note to their customers containing as good an explaination as possible of the current goings-on, as well as a note to not use their product until such time as the matter is clarified.

they should also, in my opinion, offer the money back to anyone who wants it.

citanul

[cha59]

[ QUOTE ]

they should also, in my opinion, offer the money back to anyone who wants it.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

I sent this message to Poker Prophecy last night:

I got this message from Party Poker:

I’m sure everyone has seen the email from Party by now…….

I did not know that your software was not allowed by
Party Poker. I want a refund please.

Thanks,
Tom

This was the reply:

Hello Dan,

Today we have had several emails about the same
problem. Party Poker is not just targeting users of
our software, but also those of other software sites.

We are in the process of changing Poker Prophecy as we
speak to counter the hard drives scans that Party
Poker does(which are illegal) till then feel free to
use our online database at www.pokerprophecy.com. (http://www.pokerprophecy.com.)

We do apologize for the problems, but we are fixing
our software to meet the needs of the customers.
Version 6.0 which will have all the changes needed
will be coming out within four to five days.

We also feel this is a big scare tactic by Party Poker
because we have over 6,000 customers right now and
other software companies have thousands of customers
too. With how competitive the market is right now for
players there is no way they would turn away 15,000
users from there site.

If you would still like a refund please let us know

Best Regards,

Ryan Schultz



My reply:

Adam and Ryan,

My name is Tom not Dan.

Yes please I would still like a refund.

Since I sent the previous email to you, I spoke with a Party Poker representative about Poker Prophecy. In no uncertain terms, he told me that if the program was found on my hard drive while I am playing at Party, my account would be frozen and I would lose all the money in it.

I have deleted Poker Prophecy from my hard drive and you can cancel my account. I just don't feel comfortable with the situation here, whether or not what Party is doing is illegal. If Party tells me that the use of Poker Prophecy is ok at some point in the future, I'll consider using it again.

Please let me know what else I need to do to receive the refund.

Thanks,
Tom

I will let you know what happens.

[citanul]

congrats on getting responses from both places so quickly. it's almost unheard of.

good luck getting your money from prophecy. they are basically the essence of shady businesspeople.

i very very much doubt that what party does is "illegal." and further, i'm just going out on a limb here, but if the idiots from prophecy go around saying that sort of thing in public, it's probably lible, or slander, or whichever it is when you do it in writing.

something tells me that party has done some good "cover your assing" when it comes to whether or not you agree to let them do things like hard drive scans while running their program.

citanul

[hobbes9324]

Add in the fact that PP is operating out of Gibralter - and I suspect paying a pretty hefty fee to SOMEONE there to operate and I don't think they'd be too worried about any "legalities" in terms of scanning your hard drive...or much of anything else.

[citanul]

i wouldn't think that's a very bright line of thinking.

publicly owned companies don't go "shove it up your ass" at the public users of their products, and their laws, all that often.

citanul

[hobbes9324]

Just learned something - thanks.....I didn't know, probably because I never thought about it, that they were a public company.

[citanul]

i'm pretty sure they ipoed on the london stock exchange whilst i was on hiatus, but if not, it is their intentions to do so soon.

citanul

[duke44]

[ QUOTE ]
$20 to give me an edge, booyah! boom goes the dynamite. those are the people that prophecy snookers into sending them $20 for a service that is nothing but wildly random numbers thrown on a screen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually it is 39.99 now and we have over 7,000 customers that feel the program helps them playing Poker. Our program is designed to help out those players that are not "pro's" and would like a basic read on the skills of the player next to them. I'm sure we could go back and forth on this for several posts, but I can assure you Poker Prophecy is more then just "wildly random numbers".

[ QUOTE ]
oh, i guess the service also includes as a free throw-in the possibility of having your account siezed because the software is against the site's T&C. but that's never told to you by prophecy.

if prophecy were a legitimate business, they would put in their webpage (or if they have a method of pushing a message to their downloaded client) immediately a note to their customers containing as good an explaination as possible of the current goings-on, as well as a note to not use their product until such time as the matter is clarified.


[/ QUOTE ]

The ToS from Party Poker.

"7. Anti-Cheating Software.

We are committed to detecting and preventing software programs which are designed to enable artificial intelligence ("AI Software") to play on our Services such as, but not limited to opponent-profiling, player collusion, cheating software or anything else that we deem enables you to have an unfair advantage over other players. You acknowledge that the Company will take measures to detect and prevent the use of such programs and AI Software using methods (including but not limited to screen scraping or reading the list of currently running programs on a player's computer) and you agree not to use any AI Software and/or any such programs."

The bold area of the statement pretty much covers any program that a poker player could use. It even covers forums where poker strategy is talked about.

As a moderator Citanul do you inform new posters that they could be breaking the ToS for Party Poker and therefore putting there accounts at risk?

I can understand you don't like our program, but I hope that doesn't blind you to the fact that anyone in the poker software business is technically breaking the rules according to the ToS for Party Poker. In fact, the wording is phrased in such a way that Party Poker can basically ban anyone for any reason, which we are not faulting. It's Party's call, the ToS is intentionally vague and open to their interpretation only.

As for our customers we are here and answering emails and giving refunds to those people that are unhappy with our product as long as they are within there 30 day trial period.

[hobbes9324]

Somehow I hope so - otherwise, I have a mental picture of Scrooge McDuck, sitting on giant bags of coins, watching the player count and laughing.....
Just jealous, I suppose.

[bluewilde]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm pretty sure they ipoed on the london stock exchange whilst i was on hiatus, but if not, it is their intentions to do so soon.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, they did. It was in the Economist (elsewhere too I'm sure, this is just where I saw it) like...2 weeks ago.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually it is 39.99 now and we have over 7,000 customers that feel the program helps them playing Poker. Our program is designed to help out those players that are not "pro's" and would like a basic read on the skills of the player next to them. I'm sure we could go back and forth on this for several posts, but I can assure you Poker Prophecy is more then just "wildly random numbers".

[/ QUOTE ]

well i certainly am happy for you that you have started fleecing people for twice as much money as before! part of my problem is that these people "feel" they are getting a better handle on the game, etc. they aren't really. your numbers are in no way accurate. while there are cases where yes, knowing if someone's a total tool or a seasoned pro will help you out, your product doesn't claim to do even remotely close to what it says it does, provide complete records. complete records would be a quite helpful service. sadly, no one is providing it. and yes, as you confirmed, your clientelle is basically that group of players who thinks "hey, i could use an edge." i highly doubt you have 7,000 wonderful glowing testimonials of your software. rather, you have 7,000 people who once decided to pay a fee. there's a big difference.

[ QUOTE ]
"7. Anti-Cheating Software.

We are committed to detecting and preventing software programs which are designed to enable artificial intelligence ("AI Software") to play on our Services such as, but not limited to opponent-profiling, player collusion, cheating software or anything else that we deem enables you to have an unfair advantage over other players. You acknowledge that the Company will take measures to detect and prevent the use of such programs and AI Software using methods (including but not limited to screen scraping or reading the list of currently running programs on a player's computer) and you agree not to use any AI Software and/or any such programs."

The bold area of the statement pretty much covers any program that a poker player could use. It even covers forums where poker strategy is talked about.

[/ QUOTE ]

no, it doesn't. "software programs" are not the same as "webpages." get real. you can't hope that your argument comes close to making sense. or holding water, or whatever.

[ QUOTE ]
As a moderator Citanul do you inform new posters that they could be breaking the ToC for Party Poker and therefor putting there accounts at risk?

[/ QUOTE ]

no, i don't. that's because it doesn't. i will right now warn people that discussing in real time hands that are in play by using either the posting or the pming functionality of this webpage are most likely outside the T&C of party. beyond that, again, you're just being nutty.

[ QUOTE ]
I can understand you don't like our program, but I hope that doesn't blind you to the fact that anyone in the poker software business is technically breaking the rules according to the ToS for Party Poker. In fact, the wording is phrased in such a way that Party Poker can basically ban anyone for any reason, which we are not faulting. It's Party's call, the ToS is intentionally vague and open to their interpretation only.

As for our customers we are here and answering emails and giving refunds to those people that are unhappy with our product as long as they are within there 30 day trial period.

[/ QUOTE ]

no, they're quite specific. they are basically anti poker software that is not their software, or another poker site's software i'm assuming (eh, they're probably against that too, but not in the same way) running at the same time as theirs. and hell, if what they are saying is that you guys, and all other "poker helper softwares" are against their T&C, well, that's ok. i've openly said that i hate your software, your company, and your spammers. i guess i should add that i hate the pokeredge people too, and all the other people who put fear into people who are playing the sngs, or other players on party, in order to make them pay for a service in addition to the rake they are already playing. especially those that don't provide the services that they say they will when you hand them your money.

the fact that your company's response to party saying that your software is explicitly against their T&C is "well, next version they won't be able to catch" is still just outrageous to me. are you going out of your way to tell your existing customer's of party's statements about the kosherness of your software? and the risks involved in their continued use of same? oh, wait, looking at your webpage (splashy btw, as a former web designer, you get an oooh and an aaah), it doesn't look like you are. very nice. good to see that you have your customers' best interests at heart. very clearly not your own financial interests!

also good to see that you're refunding purchase prices for those people who are within their trial period, not say, all those people who thought they were buying a lifetime of use of a product, only to realize that continued use could cost them thousands of dollars. good job.

citanul

[LesJ]

Citanul,
That was an incredible, intelligent, well thought out response on this issue. I wasted my $20 on the Poker Prophecy software a few months ago. I NEVER found it prudent to help in table selection or in reading players at the table. It was fun, every once in awhile, however, to ridicule a irritating opponent by announcing his lackluster win percentage to the table when appropriate.
I am now deleting the software before I head back to Party to play in the 200K Guaranteed MTT tourney tonight.
As to our friends at Poker Prophecy . . . I don't really want or need my $20 back, I had $20 worth of fun out of it. But please don't try to pawn this off anymore as a useful tool for serious poker players.
Thanks,
Les

[duke44]

For the time being we are sticking to our standard 30 day return policy. When and if Party bans accounts, or if they decide to continue sending e-mails, we'll address the situation at that point. One option is to move all of our current customers over to Poker Stars at no charge. Our Poker Stars product will be out in two weeks. Another option is to refund anyone that wants one. There are other options as well. The point is, it's not come to the point where we have to make that decision until Party has a chance to review the circumstances now that management is well aware of the situation as opposed to one person in security pulling the trigger. We are in this for the long term and will treat our customers accordingly.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
It was fun, every once in awhile, however, to ridicule a irritating opponent by announcing his lackluster win percentage to the table when appropriate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, this is terrible. I really hope you see why, but you probably don't, since you actually posted this crap here and thought it's funny or something.

[cha59]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

they should also, in my opinion, offer the money back to anyone who wants it.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

I sent this message to Poker Prophecy last night:

I got this message from Party Poker:

I’m sure everyone has seen the email from Party by now…….

I did not know that your software was not allowed by
Party Poker. I want a refund please.

Thanks,
Tom

This was the reply:

Hello Dan,

Today we have had several emails about the same
problem. Party Poker is not just targeting users of
our software, but also those of other software sites.

We are in the process of changing Poker Prophecy as we
speak to counter the hard drives scans that Party
Poker does(which are illegal) till then feel free to
use our online database at www.pokerprophecy.com. (http://www.pokerprophecy.com.)

We do apologize for the problems, but we are fixing
our software to meet the needs of the customers.
Version 6.0 which will have all the changes needed
will be coming out within four to five days.

We also feel this is a big scare tactic by Party Poker
because we have over 6,000 customers right now and
other software companies have thousands of customers
too. With how competitive the market is right now for
players there is no way they would turn away 15,000
users from there site.

If you would still like a refund please let us know

Best Regards,

Ryan Schultz



My reply:

Adam and Ryan,

My name is Tom not Dan.

Yes please I would still like a refund.

Since I sent the previous email to you, I spoke with a Party Poker representative about Poker Prophecy. In no uncertain terms, he told me that if the program was found on my hard drive while I am playing at Party, my account would be frozen and I would lose all the money in it.

I have deleted Poker Prophecy from my hard drive and you can cancel my account. I just don't feel comfortable with the situation here, whether or not what Party is doing is illegal. If Party tells me that the use of Poker Prophecy is ok at some point in the future, I'll consider using it again.

Please let me know what else I need to do to receive the refund.

Thanks,
Tom

I will let you know what happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Got a reply already:

Hi Tom,

All set, it will take the credit card company 2-3 days to put the money back into your account, but we've completed the refund.

Please feel free to join us again once all this blows over. If nothing else, we'll be moving everyone over to PokerStars at no cost and you may want to consider joining a site that does not invade your privacy. In the meantime, be careful what you keep on your harddrive. However, we are still very confident after speaking with Party that someone made a snap decision that was not part of formal company policy. Please check back to our website as we'll post information there as soon as we have something concrete, not rumor or conjecture.

Best Regards,

Adam Schultz

[Khern]

Sure they do. They run a cost benefit analysis, taking potential legal action into account, make a choice that has little to do with the law as it stands, and either pay a fine or try to change or redefine the law in court later, if neccesary.

Again, I may be wrong, but I believe there are anti-trust laws(amoung others?) governing this. It is not legal to prevent the usage of cerain programs on a computer just because your software is being run. Think of the leverage this would give microsoft.

I make the point because I would really like to hear from someone more knowledgable on the subject than I. Anyone?

-John

[smb394]

[ QUOTE ]

Again, I may be wrong, but I believe there are anti-trust laws(amoung others?) governing this.
-John

[/ QUOTE ]

Are we talking the anti-trust laws of Gibraltar or U.K. here? I don't think U.S. anti-trust laws really matter in this case.

[citanul]

they're not preventing the use of the other software, they're simply saying that if you use that other software simultaneously, they reserve the right to totally [censored] your account.

that doesn't seem anti-trust or anti anything else.

it's very akin to a chess server saying "if we detect you using a computer assist, we reserve the right to forfeit your game." except with lots of money at stake.

they don't intend to cripple the functionality of other people's computers, merely to, with warning, stop people from doing anything approaching cheating at their games. if they oh, made it so that your computer couldn't functionally run pokerstars while party was running, it'd be a different story.

citanul

[good2cu]

[/ QUOTE ]good luck getting your money from prophecy. they are basically the essence of shady businesspeople.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why pokerprophecy is indeed an almost useless program, In my experince they actually have very good service and made good on their return policy. I bought PP and then asked for a refund upon learning, the software does not work on eurobet, software takes a long time to update, software doesn't on multiple tables and it's not very useful anyways. While the software may suck I wouldn't extactly call them shady. If stupid people want to blow $40, and they can make money off them, more power to them. I asked for a refund (before all this happened) and promptly received it.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
In my experince they actually have very good service and made good on their return policy. I bought PP and then asked for a refund upon learning, the software does not work on eurobet, software takes a long time to update, software doesn't on multiple tables and it's not very useful anyways. While the software may suck I wouldn't extactly call them shady. If stupid people want to blow $40, and they can make money off them, more power to them. I asked for a refund (before all this happened) and promptly received it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it appears that the stated refund policy is currently "if you're in the trial period" even in light of the current difficulties. We'll see if that changes with time though.

I don't know how it is possible to call them anything other than "shady" considering their refusal to attempt to inform their customer base that use of their program could result in account siezure by Party Poker.

citanul

[Khern]

I was mostly thinking of the point that they are now a public company and therefore less likely to break the law. I guess what I am most interested in is whether there is any international aggreement as to what proper competitive practices are is what I am interested in.

None of this is neccesarily to say that I support anti-trust laws in their current form.

-John

[Khern]

[ QUOTE ]
they're not preventing the use of the other software...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes they are, And they are destroying businesses at the same time.

[ QUOTE ]
if they oh, made it so that your computer couldn't functionally run pokerstars while party was running, it'd be a different story.


[/ QUOTE ]

microsoft had significant problems when they tried to use their dominance in the OS market to gain an advantage in the browser market, even while they worked to increase the functionality of their OS by tying to two together very tightly.

I'm not making a value judgement. The Anti-trust laws as they are might be a bad idea, or might not apply. I am simply interested in legal opinion in this sort of case.

-John

[citanul]

you clearly have some problems thinking about what competitive practices are, and where things like anti-trust come into play.

amongst the problems with your reasoning, beyond just really ridiculous cribbing in order to have something to quote that you can strawman at, are that party poker and poker prophecy are not competitors in any way.

i'm not going to waste my time retyping anything about what it is or why it is party poker is doing what they are doing, as they are both already typed and intuitive. i will repeat my earlier assertion of saying that it is very much like a human v human chess interface not allowing you to run a chess analyzer in the background. or for god's sake, not allowing you to bring a computer to the poker table at a live tournament (though exceptions have lately been made). or various other completely trivial examples.

i don't really even understand what it is that you're debating at this point.

citanul

[Khern]

maybe I do have problems with where anti-trust comes into play. That's why I asked. I'm not a lawyer.

Ok, they are not direct competitors. To be completely honest, and this is a little embarrassing, I really wasn't putting this together. Nevertheless, Party's decision, as it stand, has essentially declared PT/PV the winner in the opponent-profiling market. A PT/PV win may be more palitable to Party(Thus they have a vested interest in the outcome) but their function is very close. It is also very easy to envision centralized, periodic, distribution of PT databases.

Yes, it's obvious why they are doing this. A lot of things are obvious. That does not make those things legal, or right.

And with more general regard as to the action taken by party, I do have a problem here. It's the way Party aggresive accuses people of cheating and makes subsequent threats without a clear policy as to what is and is not allowed, and then (in my limited experiance) follows up with poor customer service.

Of course, all of these things should eventually be taken care of by market forces with or without legal intervention(the potential problem being that the innovators are unfairly punished) I wonder if prophecy/edge might approach another site and sell them their tools which the sites might bundle with their poker software, so that everyone has equal access from the start. The site might be able to attract the multitablers, and certain bad players like to play against pros for various reasons. ...somewhat unlikely, but an interesting alternative I think. Of course, this would require that Party first bans PT/PV as well, which I think they should if they are going to ban Edge.

-John