This envy thing starts to make me a bit sick

[Arnfinn Madsen]

So often posters here refer to envy, that people in other countries envy US life. I have almost never met anyone who has envyed US life when travelling.

US is currently looked down upon, not envied. I know it can be a hard blow to take, but it is the reality.

[Broken Glass Can]

Thanks for acknowledging that my post was worthy of an entire thread. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

We have spread the "entitlement society" around the world. Now everybody expects something for nothing.

Give me money, I don't want to work.

Let me be the superpower of the world, without doing the hard work to get there.

Let my religion be the biggest in the world.

and so on.

Osama bin Laden grew up in a wealthy family, he feels entitled to everything as a result (and no, I will not make any obvious comparisons of his situation to the limousine liberals in the US)

It is envy.

[BadgerAle]

How many thousand muslims dead in iraq and afganistan?
Doesn't matter really because they only hate you because of envy.

[ptmusic]

[ QUOTE ]

Osama bin Laden grew up in a wealthy family, he feels entitled to everything as a result (and no, I will not make any obvious comparisons of his situation to the limousine liberals in the US)

[/ QUOTE ]

You just did suggest the comparison, and the reference to "limousine liberals" is cheap and unfair (and no, I won't make any obvious comparisons to the many "limousine conservatives").

-ptmusic

[lehighguy]

The only foriegn country I've been to is Japan. They envy us alot over there. Especially the young people want the freedom we have.

Most of the foriegn students I know are the same way. A lot of them don't want to go back to thier old countries. Imagine, for instance, having to go through with an arranged marraige. That's how things are done in a lot of places. You don't even need to be poor and backward. In a lot of the advanced countries, especially the Asian ones, people dislike the control society has over them.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

Reading your response (which was your honest opinion) and wanting to reply to you again, I realized that it was not such a smart thread since there is not so much to say on this subject other than "they envy us" or "they don't envy us".

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]
How many thousand muslims dead in iraq and afganistan?
Doesn't matter really because they only hate you because of envy.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot died. Saddam in Iraq and the Taliban in Afghanistan killed many thousands of people.

How altruistic of the US to put an end to that terrible killing spree.

[LaggyLou]

[ QUOTE ]

Geroge W. Bush grew up in a wealthy family, he feels entitled to everything as a result (and no, I will not make any obvious comparisons of his situation to the limousine liberals in the US)

It is envy.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[BadgerAle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How many thousand muslims dead in iraq and afganistan?
Doesn't matter really because they only hate you because of envy.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot died. Saddam in Iraq and the Taliban in Afghanistan killed many thousands of people.

How altruistic of the US to put an end to that terrible killing spree.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not interested in debating whether the war is right or not here.

My point is that; given the many thousands who died at US hands can you really tell me that they just hate us out of envy.

[BadgerAle]

[ QUOTE ]
The only foriegn country I've been to is Japan. They envy us alot over there. Especially the young people want the freedom we have.

Most of the foriegn students I know are the same way. A lot of them don't want to go back to thier old countries. Imagine, for instance, having to go through with an arranged marraige. That's how things are done in a lot of places. You don't even need to be poor and backward. In a lot of the advanced countries, especially the Asian ones, people dislike the control society has over them.

[/ QUOTE ]

This strikes me as not so much- 'I envy you so i want to kill you and take what you've got'

as

'I envy the countryside they have in sweden, i wish we had some like it here'.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The only foriegn country I've been to is Japan. They envy us alot over there. Especially the young people want the freedom we have.

Most of the foriegn students I know are the same way. A lot of them don't want to go back to thier old countries. Imagine, for instance, having to go through with an arranged marraige. That's how things are done in a lot of places. You don't even need to be poor and backward. In a lot of the advanced countries, especially the Asian ones, people dislike the control society has over them.

[/ QUOTE ]

This strikes me as not so much- 'I envy you so i want to kill you and take what you've got'

as

'I envy the countryside they have in sweden, i wish we had some like it here'.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you are not likely to starting killing civilian Swedes due to that.

[[censored]]

[ QUOTE ]
The only foriegn country I've been to is Japan. They envy us alot over there. Especially the young people want the freedom we have.

Most of the foriegn students I know are the same way. A lot of them don't want to go back to thier old countries. Imagine, for instance, having to go through with an arranged marraige. That's how things are done in a lot of places. You don't even need to be poor and backward. In a lot of the advanced countries, especially the Asian ones, people dislike the control society has over them.

[/ QUOTE ]

thank god, someone is in touch with the real world.

[Felix_Nietsche]

US is currently looked down upon, not envied. I know it can be a hard blow to take, but it is the reality.
************************************************** *******
Most Americans don't care whether we are looked down upon or not (except for the self-hating Americans). We have been told we are not respected/"looked down upon" 1000 times. Please realize that 999 times is enough to get your message through. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Please leave us in peace so we can save the world from islamo-fascist. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Felix_Nietsche]

Yeah, you are not likely to starting killing civilian Swedes due to that.
**********************************************
Swedes (the Western culture) are civilized and tolerant of others beliefs. Perhaps too tolerant. Countries like the Netherlands and France have discovered that Muslim immigrants make very poor citizens.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
US is currently looked down upon, not envied. I know it can be a hard blow to take, but it is the reality.
************************************************** *******
Most Americans don't care whether we are looked down upon or not (except for the self-hating Americans). We have been told we are not respected/"looked down upon" 1000 times. Please realize that 999 times is enough to get your message through. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Please leave us in peace so we can save the world from islamo-fascist. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, my opening post lacked nuances. I realize that an unemployed African and many others might envy US life with good reason. I should rather have written that US is not seen as the ideal.

I agree with you, Felix (those words from my lips /images/graemlins/confused.gif) that politics/life should not be a competition of being liked but doing what you stand for regardless of popularity.

Just when it is all the time repeated that US' society is the greatest it shows me that there is some denial in place, denial that shows lack of antennas. That same lack of antennas leads US to do many silly actions for which citizens of other countries suffer.

[natedogg]

I don't see any Floridians jumping onto makeshift rafts and floating out to sea with the wild hope that they will land in Cuba and prosper.

natedogg

[Felix_Nietsche]

First of all, my opening post lacked nuances. I realize that an unemployed African and many others might envy US life with good reason. I should rather have written that US is not seen as the ideal.
*********************************************
Agreed. I'm sure many Europeans would rather keep their lifestyle rather than adopt a USA type lifestyle. I can understand that.


I agree with you, Felix (those words from my lips ) that politics/life should not be a competition of being liked but doing what you stand for regardless of popularity.
************************************************** *
Wow! I am surprise to hear you say this.


Just when it is all the time repeated that US' society is the greatest it shows me that there is some denial in place, denial that shows lack of antennas. That same lack of antennas leads US to do many silly actions for which citizens of other countries suffer.
**********************************************
There are some very nice aspects of the USA and some bad aspects. I do not claim the USA is perfect. However, the USA has the largest amount of people who want to live in here. This tells me these people think the USA is one of the best places to be.

As for the claim the USA hurts other countries, I don't agree.
*The Taliban in Afghanistan harbored a terrorist. The continued to offer him sanctaury so they got what they deserved. Based on the stories of the Taliban, these people are not worth one tear.
*Iraq broke the cease fire agreement hundreds of times over a roughly 8 year period. Saddam Hussein arranged for the assassination of Bush41 in his visit to Kuwait in 1992(?). The assassination attempt alone was grounds for war.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/iraq/timeline/062793.htm
http://hnn.us/articles/1000.html
http://www.c-span.org/iraq/history.asp
*The Kosovo intervention I thought was unjust. There was a civil war going on and the USA should have kept out and let them fight it out.
*Perhaps you are one of the people that claim the USA killed thousands on Iraqi 'children' with the embargo on Iraq. This is silly as well. The centrally conrolled Iraq economy found money to rebuild its military and build several luxery palaces and yet we are to believe Iraq did not have enough money for food and medacine? This is a very silly notion that only children believe.

Also modern warfare as compared to WW2 has made HUGE improvements to minimize civilian casualties. All these stories of the USA killing millions of Iraqi civilians is laughable.

By the way, in my local newspaper, a Nigerian man wrote a letter to the paper wishing Bush43 would invade Nigeria and right the wrongs happening there. /images/graemlins/smile.gif And I do NOT want the USA to invade Nigeria.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with you, Felix (those words from my lips ) that politics/life should not be a competition of being liked but doing what you stand for regardless of popularity.
************************************************** *
Wow! I am surprise to hear you say this.


[/ QUOTE ]

Don't know why it surprises you but I respect people who makes up their own opinion about matters. It is ignorant following of leaders (religious or political) that has led to most problems on this planet. Even if you are right wing you are not one of those Bush-puppets that makes his "if I make a lie and enough people repeat it, it will become true"-tactics somewhat effective.


[ QUOTE ]
As for the claim the USA hurts other countries, I don't agree.
*The Taliban in Afghanistan harbored a terrorist. The continued to offer him sanctaury so they got what they deserved. Based on the stories of the Taliban, these people are not worth one tear.
*Iraq broke the cease fire agreement hundreds of times over a roughly 8 year period. Saddam Hussein arranged for the assassination of Bush41 in his visit to Kuwait in 1992(?). The assassination attempt alone was grounds for war.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/iraq/timeline/062793.htm
http://hnn.us/articles/1000.html
http://www.c-span.org/iraq/history.asp
*The Kosovo intervention I thought was unjust. There was a civil war going on and the USA should have kept out and let them fight it out.
*Perhaps you are one of the people that claim the USA killed thousands on Iraqi 'children' with the embargo on Iraq. This is silly as well. The centrally conrolled Iraq economy found money to rebuild its military and build several luxery palaces and yet we are to believe Iraq did not have enough money for food and medacine? This is a very silly notion that only children believe.

Also modern warfare as compared to WW2 has made HUGE improvements to minimize civilian casualties. All these stories of the USA killing millions of Iraqi civilians is laughable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Each matter its own thread. Later /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[lastchance]

[ QUOTE ]

Swedes (the Western culture) are civilized and tolerant of others beliefs. Perhaps too tolerant. Countries like the Netherlands and France have discovered that Muslim immigrants make very poor citizens.

[/ QUOTE ]
How is this not discriminating and hateful?

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Swedes (the Western culture) are civilized and tolerant of others beliefs. Perhaps too tolerant. Countries like the Netherlands and France have discovered that Muslim immigrants make very poor citizens.

[/ QUOTE ]
How is this not discriminating and hateful?

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the origin of this anti-moslem sentiment that shines through many of your posts, Felix?

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Swedes (the Western culture) are civilized and tolerant of others beliefs. Perhaps too tolerant. Countries like the Netherlands and France have discovered that Muslim immigrants make very poor citizens.

[/ QUOTE ]


How is this not discriminating and hateful?

[/ QUOTE ]

Logically speaking, that shouldn't be the first question. The first question should be: Is it true that (on average) Muslim immigrants to France and the Netherlands make worse citizens than do others?

[mslif]

I packed my bags after high school and moved to the US to have a chance at a better life. I am from France and in my country the unemployment rate is so high that taxes keep going up. The government takes 65% of your paycheck! We may have socialized medicine but if you are a healthy person, it really does not help. My cousin who is an engineer for the ministry of defense can barely afford an apartment!
I always looked at America as the land where anything and everything is possible. You are envied, trust me. I could on and on about why...

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Swedes (the Western culture) are civilized and tolerant of others beliefs. Perhaps too tolerant. Countries like the Netherlands and France have discovered that Muslim immigrants make very poor citizens.

[/ QUOTE ]


How is this not discriminating and hateful?

[/ QUOTE ]

Logically speaking, that shouldn't be the first question. The first question should be: Is it true that (on average) Muslim immigrants to France and the Netherlands make worse citizens than do others?

[/ QUOTE ]

There has been a lot of moslem immigration to where I live (Oslo) and it has been a benefit. The only moslem group which has not managed to fit in is the Somalis (many are illiterate and suffer traumas from war).

[lehighguy]

OP basically said he thought everyone hated us and thought thier way of life was better. I didn't realize his comments had anything to do with Muslim extremism.

[lehighguy]

It's a lot more then material wealth. It's a whole life outlook. Japan is certainly a rich country, but that doesn't mean a lot of the people don't wish thier culture was more like American culture. I've mostly dealt with Asians and Indians growing up, and the overwhelming sense you get from them is they like the fact that our culture is more free. You get to make you own choices as opposed to them being made by society, tradition, parents. These people can make a fine living in their old country, money isn't the issue. It's about the life you want to live.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
OP basically said he thought everyone hated us and thought thier way of life was better. I didn't realize his comments had anything to do with Muslim extremism.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did not mean that everyone hated you. What I actually meant (which I failed to express /images/graemlins/smile.gif (sort of on tilt from a Broken Glass Can-post /images/graemlins/blush.gif)) was that people around in other countries do not envy US, America is not seen as the dream place to go. Afterwards I thought of the fact that it does in Africa, India so I am stepping backwards (but don't kick the beaten horse /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
I should rather have written that US is not seen as the ideal.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Just when it is all the time repeated that US' society is the greatest it shows me that there is some denial in place, denial that shows lack of antennas. That same lack of antennas leads US to do many silly actions for which citizens of other countries suffer.

[/ QUOTE ]

The US is the worst nation, except for all the others.

[lehighguy]

This seems a very general and arrogant statement. For many many people I know America is seen as a great place to go. In fact, there are billions of people, both rich and poor, that would live here in a heartbeat.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
This seems a very general and arrogant statement. For many many people I know America is seen as a great place to go. In fact, there are billions of people, both rich and poor, that would live here in a heartbeat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I said: Don't kick the beaten horse /images/graemlins/grin.gif. Respect, dude /images/graemlins/cool.gif.

[Felix_Nietsche]

What is the origin of this anti-moslem sentiment that shines through many of your posts, Felix?
************************************************** ***
The short answer is the muslims themselves. Their actions and their inactions towards cruel acts of violence that their society condones. Some can be forgiven because if they speak out their muslim 'brothers' would kill them but the sad fact is most of them have been 'educated' to believe these acts of violence are just. To be more specific, my disdain is primarily focused on the Wahabi Sunni Muslims which accounts for most of the Arab world.

My first formative moment towards my current view of muslims occurred as a boy watching the Munich Olympic. Jim Ryun (the miler, now the race is the 1500m) was my hero. I worshipped him. I religiously watch the Olympics every day. Then in the middle of the Olympics, these people that I never heard of called 'Palestinians' captured several Israeli athletes held them hostage and murdered them. I did not understand why they killed these poor men. Traditionally, the Olympics was to be a time of togetherness and peace in the world. As a boy i remembered this event made me quite sad.

During college I became pro-palestinian (more accurately anti-Israeli). I was in ROTC (military cadet) and I once chewed out a Army officer for making a pro-Israeli remark during a class he was teaching (In front of the whole class! Boy was I dumb. /images/graemlins/frown.gif Lucky for me he was too surprise to speak.) But as I lived life, these pesky things called facts entered my head and I became pro-Israel and anti-Palestinian. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I was also once a psuedo-communist (college days). If you had read my posts on economics you know I have changed this view as well. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Facts and information can change my mind. I have demonstrated this many times in my life. The facts are the Wahabi Muslims are not very nice people and there is 35 years of history to support this fact.

[lehighguy]

Alright, I'll give you a break.

A good talk with some immigrants will really give you an appreciation for this country. I remember my sophmore year when Nazaar asked me how marraige worked in America. He didn't even understand the idea of marrying for love or choices your own wife. I had to explain it from the ground up. It's not even like his family was poor or backward, that is just how things get done over there.

[ACPlayer]

Ditto.

However, twenty years ago, made in America meant a great deal to the world at large and America was indeed the ideal for most people I met overseas. Meeting an American was for most foreigners an attractive and happy moment.

Not today, not anymore.

Now Americans are the best in the world in the eyes of the Americans.

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see any Floridians jumping onto makeshift rafts and floating out to sea with the wild hope that they will land in Cuba and prosper.

natedogg

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see any Norwegians jumping onto makeshift rafts and floating out to sea with the wild hope that they will land in USA and prosper

So, what's your point?

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
The only foriegn country I've been to is Japan. They envy us alot over there. Especially the young people want the freedom we have.



[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe that's the reason why we have thounsands of young Japanese leaving Japan and flying to the US in a regular basis.

They especially want the freedom Vegas style.

[The once and future king]

[ QUOTE ]
It is envy.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is retarded. English people are not in the whole envious of americans. The inteligence is that the London bombers are english.

The pertinant fact is that they are muslims, muslims are for whatever reason angry so that even if they live in an affluent country and enjoy the benefits that go along with that they will still resort to terror. Envy has nothing to do with it.

[Felix_Nietsche]

I agree.

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
So often posters here refer to envy, that people in other countries envy US life. I have almost never met anyone who has envyed US life when travelling.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never seen any posts on this forum where people state that foreigners envy U.S. life. Any specific examples or is it just your impression?

[ptmusic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So often posters here refer to envy, that people in other countries envy US life. I have almost never met anyone who has envyed US life when travelling.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never seen any posts on this forum where people state that foreigners envy U.S. life. Any specific examples or is it just your impression?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's one I just saw: link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2832665&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=&vc=1)

-ptmusic

[ACPlayer]

I should correct what I said about my experience while travelling overseas.

In general, the Europeans these days talk down about America and show no interest in either visiting or moving to the US. Of course, Asians and Africans (I have not travelled much in S. America) are very keen to move to the US, Australia or Europe(especially Western Europe, nobody wants to move to Eastern Europe) in no particular order.

The immigrants come to America for many reasons. Is it out of respect for America, American policies, or just a finanical thing. You decide for yourself.

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
So often posters here refer to envy, that people in other countries envy US life. I have almost never met anyone who has envyed US life when travelling.

US is currently looked down upon, not envied. I know it can be a hard blow to take, but it is the reality.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's funny, i've undoubtedly traveled to more places and spoken to more international citizens then you have and have had the exact opposite experience.

funny how economics and popular culture support my side of the argument while limp wristed western european gentility support yours.

fim

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see any Floridians jumping onto makeshift rafts and floating out to sea with the wild hope that they will land in Cuba and prosper.

natedogg

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see any Norwegians jumping onto makeshift rafts and floating out to sea with the wild hope that they will land in USA and prosper

So, what's your point?

[/ QUOTE ]

I knwo many (~70) norwegians who have immigrated legally and are very happy. I know of nobody who has left the US for norway.

fim

[adios]

Yeah the post you pointed to used the word jealousy which is related to envy and that poster probably should have used the word envy instead of jealously. Thanks for the link. In one of the replies I noted that this sentiment has been expressed previously. I guess I've glossed over these posts without reading.

[BadgerAle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So often posters here refer to envy, that people in other countries envy US life. I have almost never met anyone who has envyed US life when travelling.

US is currently looked down upon, not envied. I know it can be a hard blow to take, but it is the reality.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's funny, i've undoubtedly traveled to more places and spoken to more international citizens then you have and have had the exact opposite experience.

funny how economics and popular culture support my side of the argument while limp wristed western european gentility support yours.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, your kind of right, but i see both sides here:

1. A large amount of the worlds population I'm sure would love to have the kind of life that Americans (and western Europeans) have.

2. Amongst developed nations i doubt there is a strong sense of envy of americans. Maybe some prefer US culture and move over but the reverse is also true. There is certainly a lot of americans living in london.

This idea of 'envy' has got a bit confused in this thread.