Nice hand -- for me to poop on!

[JimmyV]

After 30 or so hands MP2 is 48/04 and maintaining an AF of 1.4 or so. Does anybody go limp on the turn here? Or is the Q an 'unscare' card for you guys also?

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, BB folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 caps</font>, Hero calls.

River: (16.25 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 18.25 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
MP2 has 9c Ad (three of a kind, nines).
Hero has Kc Kh (two pair, kings and nines).
Outcome: MP2 wins 18.25 BB. </font>

[teddyFBI]

looks good to me.
sometimes you just gotta pay that 9 off.

[Nightwish]

What are you doing?? I almost spilled my coffee when I saw this hand. Why in the world are you 3-betting the turn? The guy has played it exactly like someone would play a 9 vs a preflop aggressor that has position on him. Your only hope at this point is that he's overplaying a Q or is trying a semi-bluff with a turned diamond draw. This will happen often enough for you to have to call down at this point, but it won't be nearly often enough for you to 3-bet.

This and the other two hands that you posted are just bad. Do you always play like this?

[Boopotts]

I just cannot see the point of three betting. Sure, you 'charge' a diamond draw, but the whole thing just looks like a slowplayed 9. If he has a Q then let him bet on the river.

It's one of those classic hands where you can only get four bet by a hand that has you badly beaten, yet you're just barely getting the pot odds to call down. Overall, this is just a huge way to increase variance with a negligible (if any)increase in profit.

[Senor Choppy]

I can't imagine how you think you're ahead of this kind of opponent on the turn when he check-raises you.

[Lestat]

<font color="red">Or is the Q an 'unscare' card for you guys also </font>

The Q shouldn't worry you, but the two nines on the flop might've been something to think about.

[JimmyV]

I did not fail to notice the nines. But you might have failed to notice that there's another player in the pot that my three-bet drives out.

No, I don't always play this badly; I'm posting hands in which I find my play marginal so I can learn something.

Notably, I did not post the other QQ hand in which the turn got checked through, but I'm not convinced that the turn check-raise there wasn't worth going for. The arriving flush draw makes me lean well against it, ultimately, but it wasn't totally insane.

Checking a turned set might have been insane. But this play had some things going for it, since the button was surely drawing live.

Flame away. I'll continue to pull my 2.2 BB/100 out of the 30/60 until I revert to my mean.

JimmyV

[Lestat]

I didn't mean to flame or question your win rate. You asked whether the Q would scare anyone. I simply replied that No.. The Q wouldn't be what worried me. I'd be more concerned about the two nines. That's all.

[pokerhooker]

[ QUOTE ]
I did not fail to notice the nines. But you might have failed to notice that there's another player in the pot that my three-bet drives out.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're likely behind -- and way behind, if you are -- you shouldn't be concerned with driving people out. There are times to raise with what figures to be the second best hand (most often on the flop), but this certainly isn't one of them.

[JimmyV]

Okay, so the real right answer is clear to me now, and I'm surprised no one has said it: given that button folds, I have no odds and should fold to the turn cap.

Three-bet and fold to a cap. Anyone want to tell me that's dumb too?

JimmyV

[JimmyV]

Lestat,

I said 'unscare.' The Q is the only reason this seemed like a hand worth posting -- I thought there was enough chance he was overplaying a Q with the check-raise for my three-bet to be correct.

'Unscare' would of course be the opposite of 'scare.' Thought it might be a mildly interesting concept.

The cap, however, is scary without the -un.

J

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
Flame away. I'll continue to pull my 2.2 BB/100 out of the 30/60 until I revert to my mean.

[/ QUOTE ]

man, some people are really funny. but, like.. unintentionally.. you know?

[JimmyV]

'Sa fine line between clever &amp; stupid, isn't there?

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
'Sa fine line between clever &amp; stupid, isn't there?

[/ QUOTE ]

no, it's clearly defined

[bernie]

This is a textbook wait to unload on the turn with my trips. There's no draw on the flop but then he wakes up and caps on the turn? It's not the Q I'm looking at. You put in 2 bets more than you should've.

b

[JimmyV]

[ QUOTE ]
You put in 2 bets more than you should've.


[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed -- the turn cap and river call.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You put in 2 bets more than you should've.


[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed -- the turn cap and river call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not worried about the button or a turned draw. You're not knocking him out with anything you want him to fold. And you're not making much charging him to draw since the problem is you're likely way behind at this point.

However, I can see 3 betting and folding to a cap. Either way, it's 2 bets lost.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Flame away. I'll continue to pull my 2.2 BB/100 out of the 30/60 until I revert to my mean.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well why didn't you put this in the original post. We couldn't have answered then because we'd have been struck with awe and wonder.

Why people put this in the thread on a hand they ask for opinions on, then get opinions, is beyond me. But hey, I guess I should be impressed.

b

[man]

I think it's already been said but I'll reiterate it.. there's no reason to knock out the button here because you're clearly behind MP2. I can't think of any reason to 3-bet here. (hopefully button will call with a Q? maybe? doesn't even matter because of the aforementioned?) but, given that he capped there's not much reason to keep playing...

call down the CR for the possibility of a Q, though.

[JimmyV]

Your first and last sentences contradict each other perfectly.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Lestat,

I said 'unscare.' The Q is the only reason this seemed like a hand worth posting -- I thought there was enough chance he was overplaying a Q with the check-raise for my three-bet to be correct.

'Unscare' would of course be the opposite of 'scare.' Thought it might be a mildly interesting concept.

The cap, however, is scary without the -un.

J

[/ QUOTE ]

why would you 3bet that c'r if you wont fold to the cap or river bet? if MP2 had AQ then why wouldn't he bet INTO you so you could raise to get others who are drawing live out? no. he planned this and 3 bet the entire field. he has the 9 almost every single time. i've found folds if the pot wasn't big enough to call for the 2 outter. and then u're on the river w/ a huge pot and 1 bet, so you simply call. invest the 2 bets here and stop being crazy.

i simply call this down at this point. what hands are you really sure you want out of there that would be worth risking the extra 2 bets youd likely have to put in on the turn. why not go for overcalls of people drawing to 2 outs (5 w/ AQ but thats only 1 hand w/ 5 outs)?

also, stop posting the results in the same post even if its in white. it probably biases the resulting comments.

-Barron

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Your first and last sentences contradict each other perfectly.

[/ QUOTE ]

your attitude regarding the QQ checkraise and other hands you post in defending yourself contradicts the point of posting hands.

-Barron

[JimmyV]

Barron, don't be such a dang nit. I've said that I should have folded to the cap.

I should have folded to the cap. That should have been my plan.

You're a cranky SOB, and you can spare me the attitude. We're all here to learn, and I think people can learn from this three-bet even if they don't agree with it.

My pointing out that that last poster made no sense (compared to the plan I've ended up at, which was three-betting and folding to a cap) was not equivalent to saying that I had played the hand correctly.

So pipe down already. And note that three-betting here IS manifestly better than calling as long as you're ready to fold to further aggression. It costs the same.

Note also that I didn't post the hand where I had the set of Qs, Nightwish did; and I think it's fair to be a little defensive on that one since it was adduced as proof that I suck. I explained my reasoning and acknowledged that it was, on balance, wrong. But that one I didn't post, so I can't be fairly blamed for working against the point of posting hands in that case.

You used to be something of a mensch on these boards but for some reason you're taking my threads personally. Take it easy!

JimmyV

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]

Note also that I didn't post the hand where I had the set of Qs, Nightwish did;


[/ QUOTE ]
No, I didn't. I simply commented on someone else's post of that hand.

[ike]

[ QUOTE ]
And note that three-betting here IS manifestly better than calling as long as you're ready to fold to further aggression. It costs the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know what manifestly means in the above sentence, but unless its being used as a synonym for "not," I disagree. When he has the 9, if you just call down you get a chance to see your 2 outer and raise the river when you hit. He also might call your 3bet and then lead the river. Are you folding to this bet?

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know what manifestly means in the above sentence,

[/ QUOTE ]

But it looked cool in the sentence. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

b