A7o, strange line

[Aaron W.]

BB is somewhat new. I've played with him once before, but it was only for about 20-30 hands, so I didn't get a good feel for his game. The things I have noticed are that tends to be a bit weak postflop. I have notes saying that he has raised preflop and check-folded the flop on two occasions. I've also seen a couple bet-folds out of him. It looks like he's trying to TAG it up a bit, but he's too T (24 VPIP!) and the AG seems to be in the wrong places (which is why he's folding so much).

UTG is a very passive player. He only seems to bet/raise on the river. He's showing down a lot of winners (including hands two pair and bigger that he checked on the river). He's tight passive enough that I'm afraid to value bet second pair on the river HU against him.

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (4 handed, 5-max) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero folds...

I thought I would check-raise the flop, but at the last second, I decided I would wait for the turn and just bet out there. But the king scared me since now it felt very likely that I was beat. The pot was small enough that I didn't want to peel for my 5-outer. This whole hand felt strange to me.

[Nfinity]

A VPIP of 24 is not very Tight. You seem to be describing a very non-typical LA-P

My SH small blind play needs some work. Since it's UTG limping in, you say he's tight-passive, plus BB is probably not going to fold to a raise, I'm probably mucking this pre-flop, but I would like to see what others' opinions are.

On the Flop there is absolutely no reason to go for a check raise. The Pre-Flop Aggressor is to your left, so you will be essentially trapping everyone for 1 more bet, giving them better odds to draw to their gutshots and OC's. I'd bet the Flop, you could lose UTG right there or at least get BB to slow down. You might even fold BB, you did say he Folds all the wrong places.

Based on how you played it, I'm folding that Turn as well.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
A VPIP of 24 is not very Tight. You seem to be describing a very non-typical LA-P

[/ QUOTE ]

That's 24 VPIP at a 5-max game.

[Dave G.]

I would raise preflop. That makes this hand much easier to play because you are taking the initiative. BB may not even be in the hand at this point if you had have raised, and if UTG is tight-passive, you really want this heads up with him.

I think the flop call is okay, but there aren't too many turn cards you're happy to see. Any low cards make straight possibilities, and high cards can obviously beat your pair. So I'd call with the intention of calling down if there's no significant action.

However, the K is a very scary card, and I don't like that UTG is calling along. He would have folded if he had nothing, so it's just a question of whether or not his something is better than yours. With BB still betting into you, a bad card and a smallish pot, I think this is a fairly safe laydown.

[Nfinity]

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[ QUOTE ]
A VPIP of 24 is not very Tight. You seem to be describing a very non-typical LA-P

[/ QUOTE ]

That's 24 VPIP at a 5-max game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ohhhhh....

I think I would Raise Pre-flop then, maybe, depends on how tight UTG actually is UTG. Does he seem position aware at all?

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the flop call is okay, but there aren't too many turn cards you're happy to see. Any low cards make straight possibilities, and high cards can obviously beat your pair. So I'd call with the intention of calling down if there's no significant action.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would consider a queen to be somewhat safe, an 8 or 9 to be very safe. J and T are in the middle. Those are a little safer than the cards that bring 4-straights to the party, but I actually think those aren't so scary.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
I would raise preflop. That makes this hand much easier to play because you are taking the initiative. BB may not even be in the hand at this point if you had have raised, and if UTG is tight-passive, you really want this heads up with him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Forgot to ask... what's the lowest hand you would raise here? I'm still not very confident about my raising standards from the small blind. As I feel better about postflop play, I'll start doing more preflop.

[Dave G.]

[ QUOTE ]
Forgot to ask... what's the lowest hand you would raise here? I'm still not very confident about my raising standards from the small blind. As I feel better about postflop play, I'll start doing more preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, normally I use A8o as the cutoff point for full ring if there is only one limper (rare as that is), but short handed it really depends on the blinds and who is in. If the blinds are weak and the limper is weak, I could see myself raising as low as A6o. Take out the limper and I'm raising any ace, king or queen.

Since it's only 4 handed, A7o stands a decent chance of being the best hand. Here you've got a passive, weak player that you can maybe isolate (depending on how well BB defends). So if you're going to play it, I'd raise it up to improve my chances of winning and also to make it easier to push UTG off whatever hand he has.

Calling isn't terrible and there can't be much difference in value, I just think raising makes the hand easier to play. If BB will never (or infrequently) fold to the raise, then calling is probably better.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would raise preflop. That makes this hand much easier to play because you are taking the initiative. BB may not even be in the hand at this point if you had have raised, and if UTG is tight-passive, you really want this heads up with him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Forgot to ask... what's the lowest hand you would raise here? I'm still not very confident about my raising standards from the small blind. As I feel better about postflop play, I'll start doing more preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

your descriptions make A7o unwise to raise preflop here IMO from SB.

would BB be TAG enough to raise this on the flop if you bet into him? is UTG capable of finding the fold button faced with 2 cold on this board? really, i think if either are "no", then i'd probably play it the same.

[Watain]

Tough one.

Flop &gt;&gt; I would have made the check-raise on the flop, hoping to punish BB aggro-tendencies. If the c/r was called through, i would lead the turn and see what happened, almost no matter what showed up but fold to a turn-raise. UTG could also have picked up BB aggro-tendencies and therefore didn´t want to fold his overcards.

But it´s really a close decision. As you mention the pot is not really that big...

[Jaran]

Rather than a c/r, wouldn't a flop bet be better as far as protection? Get rid of UTG after BB raises. Of course, if UTG calls 2 cold, I'm treading very carefully.

-Jaran

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Rather than a c/r, wouldn't a flop bet be better as far as protection? Get rid of UTG after BB raises. Of course, if UTG calls 2 cold, I'm treading very carefully.

-Jaran

[/ QUOTE ]

There's no guarantee that BB will raise my bet (he might just fold -- his play baffles me), so the level of protection may end up being roughly the same. The check-raise isn't so much for protection as it is for value. If I've got both players drawing to (presumably) overcards, I stand to gain quite a bit by trapping them both for two bets (I may even have BB reverse dominated here). If they miss on the turn, they will have a harder time calling a turn bet with just overcards, which helps me to get rid of them before the river (which cuts off their extra chance to catch up).

That's the idea, anyway. I'm not sure if I like it.

[Jaran]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Rather than a c/r, wouldn't a flop bet be better as far as protection? Get rid of UTG after BB raises. Of course, if UTG calls 2 cold, I'm treading very carefully.

-Jaran

[/ QUOTE ]

There's no guarantee that BB will raise my bet (he might just fold -- his play baffles me), so the level of protection may end up being roughly the same. The check-raise isn't so much for protection as it is for value. If I've got both players drawing to (presumably) overcards, I stand to gain quite a bit by trapping them both for two bets (I may even have BB reverse dominated here). If they miss on the turn, they will have a harder time calling a turn bet with just overcards, which helps me to get rid of them before the river (which cuts off their extra chance to catch up).

That's the idea, anyway. I'm not sure if I like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If there is a chance that BB folds here to a bet, then I really like a flop bet out. It seems like then you get the best of all worlds: he raises, you get protection, he calls, you can narrow his hands a bit, he folds, you're HU with UTG.

-Jaran

[Aaron W.]

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero folds.

River: (6.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
BB has Th Jd (one pair, sixes).
UTG has 5s Ah (one pair, sixes).
Outcome: UTG wins 8.50 BB. </font>

I was stunned, I made a note, and I still don't have much of a clue as to how this guy plays. I also made a note about UTG's calling down with ace-high. Apparently, he was just getting really lucky and catching everything at the time.

[Sykes]

Please check-raise the flop and bet the turn. You make baby jesus cry playing your way.

[Redd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A VPIP of 24 is not very Tight. You seem to be describing a very non-typical LA-P

[/ QUOTE ]

That's 24 VPIP at a 5-max game.

[/ QUOTE ]
Aaron, What's your 5-max VPIP?

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A VPIP of 24 is not very Tight. You seem to be describing a very non-typical LA-P

[/ QUOTE ]

That's 24 VPIP at a 5-max game.

[/ QUOTE ]
Aaron, What's your 5-max VPIP?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm only 921 hands in, but that should be enough to narrow it down a little bit. I'm playing at about 29/18/4, but I think I would like to loosen up a little bit more and play slightly above 30 VPIP. Seeing the sorts of postflop mistakes players are making, I'm pretty sure I can sneak in with more hands.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Rather than a c/r, wouldn't a flop bet be better as far as protection? Get rid of UTG after BB raises. Of course, if UTG calls 2 cold, I'm treading very carefully.

-Jaran

[/ QUOTE ]

There's no guarantee that BB will raise my bet (he might just fold -- his play baffles me), so the level of protection may end up being roughly the same. The check-raise isn't so much for protection as it is for value. If I've got both players drawing to (presumably) overcards, I stand to gain quite a bit by trapping them both for two bets (I may even have BB reverse dominated here). If they miss on the turn, they will have a harder time calling a turn bet with just overcards, which helps me to get rid of them before the river (which cuts off their extra chance to catch up).

That's the idea, anyway. I'm not sure if I like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If there is a chance that BB folds here to a bet, then I really like a flop bet out. It seems like then you get the best of all worlds: he raises, you get protection, he calls, you can narrow his hands a bit, he folds, you're HU with UTG.

-Jaran

[/ QUOTE ]

I was leaning towards the check-raise because I felt he might be willing to bet-fold, which is even better than leading out and watching him fold.