Aces [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

bardolph

07-09-2005, 01:39 AM

This is the 19th hand played by Villain, and it's the first time I've seen him voluntarily put $ in the pot. Don't know anything about the button.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
Hero calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO :#A500AF(Villain)/ calls, Button raises, 2 folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO :#A500AF(Villain)/ calls.

Flop: (11.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Villain raises, Button folds, Hero calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

Since the Villain has already established himself as tight, I respect this raise, but am unwilling to fold my pair of aces.

Turn: (9.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)

I was planning to check and fold here, but the third ace changes my plans.

Hero bets, MP2 calls, Villain raises, Hero calls, MP2 folds.

River: (14.25 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Villain bets, Hero calls.

Here, I'm pretty sure I'm beaten, but the pot seems too big for me to fold.

Final Pot: 16.25 BB

Aaron W.

07-09-2005, 01:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is the 19th hand played by Villain, and it's the first time I've seen him voluntarily put $ in the pot. Don't know anything about the button.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
Hero calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO :#A500AF(Villain)/ calls, Button raises, 2 folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO :#A500AF(Villain)/ calls.

Flop: (11.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Villain raises, Button folds, Hero calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

Since the Villain has already established himself as tight, I respect this raise, but am unwilling to fold my pair of aces.

Turn: (9.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)

I was planning to check and fold here, but the third ace changes my plans.

Hero bets, MP2 calls, Villain raises, Hero calls, MP2 folds.

River: (14.25 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Villain bets, Hero calls.

Here, I'm pretty sure I'm beaten, but the pot seems too big for me to fold.

Final Pot: 16.25 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Leading out on the flop pretty is bad.

pryor15

07-09-2005, 01:44 AM

i'm not a big fan of this UTG limp. i fold here.

as tight as villain is, i've gotta think you're looking at a bigger Ace a made flush or a set. when he raises again on the turn, i'm convinced i'm beat. get out.

i highly doubt you win this often enough to make it +EV

bardolph

07-09-2005, 01:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Leading out on the flop pretty is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

Kumubou

07-09-2005, 01:49 AM

...and that is why you do not play Axs in early position, folks.

Now you are in a pickle on this flop. I might just try to checkraise the button here, in a vain attempt to get people the hell out of the hand.

Given the flop raise, I would probably fold this UI on the turn... but you did improve. From there, I probably check/call the turn and bet any river (call a non-heart river raise, fold to a raise with a 4th heart) -- you are behind any case Ace except A3 and A2, a made flush, and a set, but are ahead of a flush draw and everything else is drawing dead or nearly dead. So this is one of those crazy-ass multi-way way ahead/way behind situtations.

Giving a free card on the turn would be ugly, though -- so I can understand the turn stop-and-go. Guess it comes down to how likely the villan is to be betting the turn.

-K

pryor15

07-09-2005, 01:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Leading out on the flop pretty is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

what makes you think you're ahead? and if you think you're behind, what are you hoping to hit?

Kumubou

07-09-2005, 01:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Leading out on the flop pretty is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

[/ QUOTE ]
All your flop bet does is bloat a pot you are very vulnerable in. You are leaving yourself wide open for any draw to beat you, really (and you are probably behind anyway).

-K

bardolph

07-09-2005, 01:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Leading out on the flop pretty is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

what makes you think you're ahead? and if you think you're behind, what are you hoping to hit?

[/ QUOTE ]

I hit an Ace. Why would I give away free cards?

Aaron W.

07-09-2005, 01:55 AM

Kumubou

07-09-2005, 01:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I hit an Ace. Why would I give away free cards?

[/ QUOTE ]
You are betting into a pre-flop raiser, and there are several donks between you and him.

There are five people in this pot, which is honkin large.

You are very likely to be more dominated than the gimp at an S&M club.

You are likely to be behind, and there is no way in hell a better hand or a solid draw is folding to anything anyone does. Do you runner-runner g00t?

-K

Aaron W.

07-09-2005, 01:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
...and that is why you do not play Axs in early position, folks.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/frown.gif

You play Axs in loose games because it's profitable. Sometimes you get stuck with difficult decisions. That doesn't mean that the limp was bad.

pryor15

07-09-2005, 02:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Leading out on the flop pretty is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

what makes you think you're ahead? and if you think you're behind, what are you hoping to hit?

[/ QUOTE ]

I hit an Ace. Why would I give away free cards?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. nobody's folding a /images/graemlins/heart.gif, but that isn't such a big deal in the end, 2. if the PFR is as tight as you say he is, then it's very likely that he (or someone else) hit a bigger Ace, which means you're drawing to 2 outs (b/c your 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif is probably no good here) and if he's hit a set or a flush already you're drawing virtually dead. there aren't very many hands that will raise you here that you can beat (basically a busted flush draw is about it) and being first to act, you have zero information on how this board hit anyone. if you're gonna be aggresive on the flop, checkraise.

bardolph

07-09-2005, 02:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
...and that is why you do not play Axs in early position, folks.

Now you are in a pickle on this flop. I might just try to checkraise the button here, in a vain attempt to get people the hell out of the hand.

Given the flop raise, I would probably fold this UI on the turn... but you did improve. From there, I probably check/call the turn and bet any river (call a non-heart river raise, fold to a raise with a 4th heart) -- you are behind any case Ace except A3 and A2, a made flush, and a set, but are ahead of a flush draw and everything else is drawing dead or nearly dead. So this is one of those crazy-ass multi-way way ahead/way behind situtations.

Giving a free card on the turn would be ugly, though -- so I can understand the turn stop-and-go. Guess it comes down to how likely the villan is to be betting the turn.

-K

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I think I see where I went wrong. Table isn't loose enough for Axs UTG for starters. The preflop raise makes it likely that I'm up against another Ace.

When the flop hits the Ace, the pot is already too big for me to do anything useful by betting, since I can't chase away drawing hands or better made hands.

Can I safely fold the turn raise?

Kumubou

07-09-2005, 02:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You play Axs in loose games because it's profitable. Sometimes you get stuck with difficult decisions. That doesn't mean that the limp was bad.

[/ QUOTE ]
Axs is marginally profitable for a good player in early position in a loose game. The key here is that people must play well post-flop (which a lot of people on this forum, including myself, have trouble with -- but that is why we are here).

On a flop like this, I think the expectation of a naked ace with this many people involved with this flop texture is negative. (The pot is so damn big, I peel for one bet anyway.)

-K

pryor15

07-09-2005, 02:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Axs is marginally profitable for a good player in early position in a loose game. The key here is that people must play well post-flop (which a lot of people on this forum, including myself, have trouble with -- but that is why we are here).

[/ QUOTE ]

and really you aren't looking for an Ace in these situations. you're looking for a nut flush draw or a straight draw if it's A2-A5...and 2 pair is always nice. a naked ace is a good opportunity to lose $$

Kumubou

07-09-2005, 02:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Can I safely fold the turn raise?

[/ QUOTE ]
No -- you have odds to draw to your miracle boat/quads (although if you do hit quads, you were good to begin with, heh). The 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif would probably be a license to print money, as I doubt anyone already has the boat and/or people would not put you on the boat. Your odds are thin, but your implied odds are good and the pot is large.

(This is also why really wild games are not as profitable as one thinks. Sure, you are drawing correctly, but so is everyone else! I think there is an essay from MM in one of the GTAOT compilations.)

-K

Shillx

07-09-2005, 02:06 AM

This thread is depressing. Are you going to tell me to fold Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif UTG next time when the flop comes A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

As for this hand...I would check and see what happens. If the action isn't too heavy, I want to see a turn card before I take action. If 4th street bricks out, then I will lead out to prevent giving a free card.

Brad

Aaron W.

07-09-2005, 02:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You play Axs in loose games because it's profitable. Sometimes you get stuck with difficult decisions. That doesn't mean that the limp was bad.

[/ QUOTE ]
Axs is marginally profitable for a good player in early position in a loose game. The key here is that people must play well post-flop (which a lot of people on this forum, including myself, have trouble with -- but that is why we are here).

On a flop like this, I think the expectation of a naked ace with this many people involved with this flop texture is negative. (The pot is so damn big, I peel for one bet anyway.)

-K

[/ QUOTE ]

If you play decently postflop and there are 5 to the flop, Axs is generally profitable. If you are playing Axs with only 3 to a flop, that's quite a bit different.

The expectation here is hard to determine by just staring at the flop. You should check to see how the action unfolds. You can get out cheap if it's bet and raised, or you can check-raise a late position bet to protect your hand, or you can check-call an early position bet because you can see the turn cheaply in a big pot.

Kumubou

07-09-2005, 02:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This thread is depressing. Are you going to tell me to fold Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif UTG next time when the flop comes A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
With this many players in a smaller pot, perhaps. Not for one bet in a pot this big, though. (You have odds to draw to your set! -- well, maybe not, as one of your outs is really dirty -- but then you have a re-draw, heh.)

[ QUOTE ]
As for this hand...I would check and see what happens. If the action isn't too heavy, I want to see a turn card before I take action. If 4th street bricks out, then I will lead out to prevent giving a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]
Would you attempt a turn check-raise on a brick (or a good card, like here) if only the pre-flop raiser bet out and everyone called? I wonder if you get more help from c/r the flop straight off and then leading out the turn, or just leading the turn, or trying to c/r the turn. Hmm...

-K

Aaron W.

07-09-2005, 02:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is the 19th hand played by Villain, and it's the first time I've seen him voluntarily put $ in the pot. Don't know anything about the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe we should slow this down a little bit. This is a rather meh read. If you haven't hit a tight run of 20 cards, then you probably haven't been playing very long. If he is super tight, then there's a reasonable chance he's weak-tight and he'll give up postflop if it doesn't come his way (like here).

We can't ignore the read, because it's useful information. We just can't lean too heavily on it. Villain could have the standard PFR hands here: AA-JJ, AK, AQ, AJs, KQs. I would throw in TT-99 also. The read tells us that he might be tight, so we don't expect KJs, KTs, QJs, ATs, and other pot-building raises out of him.

TomBrooks

07-09-2005, 02:21 AM

Flop: (11.50 SB) Since the Villain has already established himself as tight, I respect this raise, but am unwilling to fold my pair of aces.

-- As well you should be.

Turn: I was planning to check and fold here, but the third ace changes my plans.

-- As well it should.

River: Here, I'm pretty sure I'm beaten, but the pot seems too big for me to fold.

-- Yes it is. Especially when you have a set of Aces.

What is the question?

bardolph

07-09-2005, 02:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is the 19th hand played by Villain, and it's the first time I've seen him voluntarily put $ in the pot. Don't know anything about the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe we should slow this down a little bit. This is a rather meh read. If you haven't hit a tight run of 20 cards, then you probably haven't been playing very long. If he is super tight, then there's a reasonable chance he's weak-tight and he'll give up postflop if it doesn't come his way (like here).

We can't ignore the read, because it's useful information. We just can't lean too heavily on it. Villain could have the standard PFR hands here: AA-JJ, AK, AQ, AJs, KQs. I would throw in TT-99 also. The read tells us that he might be tight, so we don't expect KJs, KTs, QJs, ATs, and other pot-building raises out of him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain wasn't the preflop raiser. The Button was.

The Villain got trapped for 2 bets by the pfr.

I don't know what to put the villain on. I know 19 hands isn't much. All it tells me is that the Villain is capable of folding 19 times in a row, so probably isn't a complete fish.

TomBrooks

07-09-2005, 02:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
checkraise the button here, in a vain attempt to get people the hell out of the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since nobody with a heart is leaving, I seem to think it's just as well to get the field to call one and then let the CO raise trapping all for one more, in case we have the best hand. If the CO doesn't raise, he probably doesn't have an ace or a heart. If a raising war breaks out, a fold might be in order.

bardolph

07-09-2005, 02:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (11.50 SB) Since the Villain has already established himself as tight, I respect this raise, but am unwilling to fold my pair of aces.

-- As well you should be.

Turn: I was planning to check and fold here, but the third ace changes my plans.

-- As well it should.

River: Here, I'm pretty sure I'm beaten, but the pot seems too big for me to fold.

-- Yes it is. Especially when you have a set of Aces.

What is the question?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, having read some of the responses, I'm pretty unsure about having led the flop...

TomBrooks

07-09-2005, 02:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i'm not a big fan of this UTG limp. i fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Limping on the average tight 1/2 table and hoping to get a few callers is usually futile. You wind up with one or maybe two callers and the blinds dragging their trash with them for free. Raise it and steal the blinds from UTG.

If anyone calls, bet the flop no matter what comes.

Rev. Good Will

07-09-2005, 07:11 AM

I think that was textbook example of C/R'ing the flop for hand protection. Or maybe check-calling the flop and C/R'ing a non-heart turn (<--mabe the better route)

Rev. Good Will

07-09-2005, 07:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is the 19th hand played by Villain, and it's the first time I've seen him voluntarily put $ in the pot. Don't know anything about the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe we should slow this down a little bit. This is a rather meh read. If you haven't hit a tight run of 20 cards, then you probably haven't been playing very long. If he is super tight, then there's a reasonable chance he's weak-tight and he'll give up postflop if it doesn't come his way (like here).

We can't ignore the read, because it's useful information. We just can't lean too heavily on it. Villain could have the standard PFR hands here: AA-JJ, AK, AQ, AJs, KQs. I would throw in TT-99 also. The read tells us that he might be tight, so we don't expect KJs, KTs, QJs, ATs, and other pot-building raises out of him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think 19 hands is a good enough read to conclude that

TomBrooks

07-09-2005, 04:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (11.50 SB) Since the Villain has already established himself as tight, I respect this raise, but am unwilling to fold my pair of aces.

-- As well you should be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, having read some of the responses, I'm pretty unsure about having led the flop...

[/ QUOTE ]
Leading the flop is a is risky because someone may have made a flush already. But others may just be on a flush draw. You have TP, albeit weak kicker, but maybe you are the only one with TP. I am willing to pay 1 bet per street to go to showdown with TP Aces as long as another heart doesn't come. You could check this flop, but if it gets checked through you are giving single hearts a free card while you might have the best hand at them moment.

Since I would call a flop bet, I'd rather make the bet and call. The danger is getting raised which is what happened, but it is only one more small small bet, not a disaster. Since a flush draw would raise, you cannot be sure you are beat yet. The nut or second nut flush would probably not raise, hoping to keep more callers. It's more likely a flush draw would raise.

A low made flush might raise taking a chance on collecting bets from single higher hearts.

So, I'm figuring this is maybe a 50-50 shot you have. That's why I bet out the flop. Also, if it were raised and reraised, I would fold when it came back to me and save any further bets.